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[Thaago]

I like 4 small missile mounts for torpedoes - 8 hammers or 4 reapers is pretty darn good on a destroyer that wants to be near enemy ships like the enforcer does (and the drover wants to stay away). Annihilators are similarly very nice for lots of HE pressure: both are good for SO builds.

For sabot/harpoon, they are the equivalent of a single medium missile but cost double the OP, so if going for that purpose it has equivalent missile firepower to condor or shrike (though I'd always put salamander pod on a condor if I have the option).

[TaLaR]

Annihilators are similarly very nice for lots of HE pressure: both are good for SO builds.

AI mistakes them for self sufficient long range weapons, wasting all ammo before it gets decent opportunity to fire (which would be after driving enemy flux up with kinetic guns).
Though I guess it's a smaller problem for SO rather than conventional builds.

[Goumindong]

I like 4 small missile mounts for torpedoes - 8 hammers or 4 reapers is pretty darn good on a destroyer that wants to be near enemy ships like the enforcer does (and the drover wants to stay away). Annihilators are similarly very nice for lots of HE pressure: both are good for SO builds.

For sabot/harpoon, they are the equivalent of a single medium missile but cost double the OP, so if going for that purpose it has equivalent missile firepower to condor or shrike (though I'd always put salamander pod on a condor if I have the option).

Additionally, 16 OP on the 110 OP* enforcer that does not expect to fit 16+ OP worth of fighters is significantly different than 16 OP on the 70 OP drover that is expected to fit 16+ OP worth of fighters

The enforcer is a pretty decent ship.

*15 more than a hammerhead or medusa!

[Grievous69]

I really dislike the large ballistic idea for Enforcer, it wouldn't solve anything.

So I took it out for a spin just to remember how it actually plays and dear god it's even worse than I recall. Just putting 2 Heavy autocannons and a Heavy Mortar makes it *** itself with flux. That's 3 out of 5! medium slots and it's using only common weapons. I even gave it flux distributor and hardened shields, but then you barely have any OP for missiles. It's so *** bad, at least this build should be close to flux efficient. 4 Arbalests and 1 Heavy mortar as an all-in offensive cheaper build also fails as it's 200 flux above it's dissipation with the shield down. You seriously can't do a thing with this brick without SO... I get that it's low tech, so it can't be crazy on flux, but it has FIVE mediums, shouldn't that mean something? Like how ships get extra OP for each mount they have.

And how would I be overjoyed if the Burn drive canceling comes back, damn that was so satisfying to use. It would fix the biggest annoyance I have with Enforcer.

[MesoTroniK]

It already has *four* small missile hardpoints. This is a prodigious arsenal for a destroyer, insane rocket and torpedo volleys. Or enough Harpoons or Sabots to screw over a few ships before running dry.

The drover has 4 small missile mounts, and I've never seen anyone describe it as having 'an insane rocket and torpedo volley'.

Missiles are definitely very good. The idea is to make the enforcer good. It has such bad shields and flux stats that I think it needs to missile help to be decent. Small missiles just don't have the ammo to be a significant part of an arsenal, they are only every augmenting the weapons. 2 sabot pods and 2 harpoon pods will kill one, maaaaybe 2 destroyers. Medium missiles with expanded racks can last through an early game fight and actually be a significant part of the weapon setup rather than one or two random kills (or more likely wasted shots). You could switch the 4 smalls to 2 mediums as an alternative, but I'm not sure if that's enough to make the ship worth using. The idea is just to lean into the low tech dependance on missiles to compensate for bad flux stats rather than giving it better flux stats or shields. 5 medium ballistic mounts are just wasted on it IMO.

The Drover is stupidly OP, I pretend it doesn't even exist when balancing. Because as soon as you think it does, then it invalids *many* other things in the game. Also, the Drover can't do close combat nor has guns to back up and segue with its missiles. I cannot even believe I even have to point out things like this to be honest.

Enforcer, with two med missiles instead of four smalls. Would be almost as broken as the Drover.

[Goumindong]

Why would you put 2 heavy autocannons and a mortar on it? Like. Why not arbalests? Or HVD? Why go with the highest flux usage medium kinetic?

You can put 4 HMG and an assault chaingun on it with SO. You can put flack on it which will reduce its shield flux usage while also not consistently firing. You could put lower flux but higher efficient weapons. The thing has 15 more OP than a hammerhead.

It has almost as much OP as a falcon. Use it!

[Igncom1]

Yeah when is it a good idea to use a Heavy Autocannon over the other choices? They look really cool with the big triple barrelled battleship style cannons, but their performance in my opinion really doesn't match it's costs.

[Havoc]

my problem with the enforcer is
it is good on the paper but it overloads before it can do much damage.

with lasher I can dodge with strafe
enforcer is just a big slow hitbox

something like evade burndrive to the side would be better
than rammingburndrivebutIamtooslowevanwiththat

[Igncom1]

Not that we should go too far down the rabbit hole of balancing mind. It's already to have bad options as low tech destroyers might just be too conflicting of design perimeters.

Just so long as the enforcer isn't unusable or worse then civilian ships. Also the lasher, what's the word on that ship because it doesn't feel like a low tech ship at all, right? It's easily beaten by the centurion for being a heavily armoured frigate and feels far more like a midline bullet chucker then any kind of low tech design.

[Grievous69]

Why would you put 2 heavy autocannons and a mortar on it? Like. Why not arbalests? Or HVD? Why go with the highest flux usage medium kinetic?

You can put 4 HMG and an assault chaingun on it with SO. You can put flack on it which will reduce its shield flux usage while also not consistently firing. You could put lower flux but higher efficient weapons. The thing has 15 more OP than a hammerhead.

It has almost as much OP as a falcon. Use it!

Because they're common, have higher DPS and range? I agree that they're not good but I'm probably not gonna spend elite weapons like HVDs and Maulers on an Enforcer (that's the combo I usually went with and it was just meh, I'd almost always take Falcon or Eagle instead of it). And OP in this case doesn't mean ***, it has way too many mounts with way too low flux stats, you'd need 40 vents on this thing to even be an ok ship.

[Megas]

Occasionally, I use Heavy Autocannons on Enforcers because I run out of Arbalests after using them on everything else.

I use mostly Annihilators on Enforcers because I can buy them on the Open Market and AI uses them to block incoming enemy fire (probably by accident).  Annihilators work well for brawling, until they run out which is not very long.

As for Drover, it could probably be built to brawl, but with its system and stats, why bother?  Better to min-max its fighter capability (which is why someone uses a carrier).  And do not get me started on the (entry-level carrier) Condor.  With low OP, junk mounts and stats, if I want anything better than Talons, I need to sack weapons.  (That was not a problem when Talons were 8 OP gods worth 0 OP in that first 0.8a release.)  While Drover can use all of its OP to pump up stats and grab hullmods after fighters, Condor needs most of its OP just to get good fighters.

Not fond of Lasher.  It is a SO machine gun boat.  It seems too slow without SO.  Prefer Centurion over Lasher for steady non-SO brawling.

[intrinsic_parity]

It already has *four* small missile hardpoints. This is a prodigious arsenal for a destroyer, insane rocket and torpedo volleys. Or enough Harpoons or Sabots to screw over a few ships before running dry.

The drover has 4 small missile mounts, and I've never seen anyone describe it as having 'an insane rocket and torpedo volley'.

Missiles are definitely very good. The idea is to make the enforcer good. It has such bad shields and flux stats that I think it needs to missile help to be decent. Small missiles just don't have the ammo to be a significant part of an arsenal, they are only every augmenting the weapons. 2 sabot pods and 2 harpoon pods will kill one, maaaaybe 2 destroyers. Medium missiles with expanded racks can last through an early game fight and actually be a significant part of the weapon setup rather than one or two random kills (or more likely wasted shots). You could switch the 4 smalls to 2 mediums as an alternative, but I'm not sure if that's enough to make the ship worth using. The idea is just to lean into the low tech dependance on missiles to compensate for bad flux stats rather than giving it better flux stats or shields. 5 medium ballistic mounts are just wasted on it IMO.

The Drover is stupidly OP, I pretend it doesn't even exist when balancing. Because as soon as you think it does, then it invalids *many* other things in the game. Also, the Drover can't do close combat nor has guns to back up and segue with its missiles. I cannot even believe I even have to point out things like this to be honest.

Enforcer, with two med missiles instead of four smalls. Would be almost as broken as the Drover.

Yeah the drover can be OP for a few load outs, but because of its ship system and sparks, not the missile slots. Personally I think it's mostly an issue with the way fighters stack. If 4 small missiles was some very powerful mount combination for destroyers, I would expect drover loadouts to revolve around or at least feature the missiles, but the only time I've even seen the missile slots mentioned was people saying they left them empty to get more OP for fighters.

Vigilance has a medium missile for 5 DP, kite has 2 smalls for 2 DP, wolf has 2 smalls for 5 DP, Buffalo MK II has 1 medium and 3 smalls for 4 DP, granted it has no shields, mule has 1 composite and 2 smalls. I really don't see how 4 smalls on a destroyer is anything special. If that was a 'prodigious arsenal', why is the enforcer the worst combat destroyer in the game? 4 mediums and 2 smalls on the pirate falcon for 15 DP is a proper 'prodigious arsenal', and that still falls off in late mid game IMO. 2 mediums is quite a bit for 9 DP, but the idea is that it is compensating for how bad the rest of the ship is. Maybe you're right that 2 mediums for 9 DP is a little too much (I'm still not completely convinced though), but 'as OP as the drover' seems very extreme. What about 1 medium and 2 smalls?

[Grievous69]

Welp I completely forgot Enforcer is 9 DP... Well then just increase its cost and make it a proper destroyer, problem solved.

EDIT: I was curious so I went to see the shield stats of other low-tech ships. Every single other one has a 1 shield/dmg ratio, even the bloody carriers, yet this gem here is the exception. It's not even a glass cannon. But someone will still say that it's a decent ship while clearly it has many problems.

From its description: ''Tough to beat in a destroyer to destroyer fight'' now who are we exactly kidding here?

[Megas]

From its description: ''Tough to beat in a destroyer to destroyer fight'' now who are we exactly kidding here?

That was true in the past.  Enforcer took a fall since 0.8a, and that part codex has not changed since.  On the other hand, Hammerhead was a miserable pile of secrets with low OP and a self-destructive ship system (ammo feeder did not have high enough flux discount if any) before 0.8a, then it became good since 0.8a.  In effect, Hammerhead and Enforcer swapped places in power.

Skills were stronger before 0.8a, and Enforcer could support more firepower back then than today.

P.S.  Drover is almost as elite as Medusa at 12 DP.  Almost because Drover can be nicked of the common midline bundle while Medusa is a singleton blueprint that can only be robbed from Tri-Tachyon (or found if you are lucky).

P.P.S.  A 4 or 5 DP frigate can comfortably support two small weapons.  A destroyer that costs twice as much should be able to support four lights or two mediums.

[Thaago]

Enforcer stats haven't changed iirc, but the tricks it relied on has. Double stacking engine boosters with no range penalty? Gone. High DPS on the long ranged ballistics? Gone. +30% OP that gave it a bigger benefit than other destroyers because of its high base stats? Gone. It used to have enough OP to exploit the exploits, but those exploits are now gone.