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Author Topic: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges  (Read 1282 times)

IronBorn

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Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« on: March 29, 2020, 05:27:34 PM »

Would be interesting to have an option to enable that causes all nanoforges and synchrotron cores to decay over time. I feel like the sector is already supposed to be in a state of collapse, and would be fun to play as the sector falls more and more apart. With all factions, including the player, taking on more d-modded fleets. (The player bonus that reduces the effects of d-mods by 50% would have to be removed or diminished, though.)

Corrupted nanoforges could be consumed to extend the life of pristine nanoforges. So, a pristine nanoforge might have a lifespan of 1 cycle, and could be extend 1 cycle per corrupted nanoforge. Synchrotron core and corrupted nanoforges would need replacing every few cycles.

Techmines would also be another way to extend the life of forges and cores, making them a bit more useful to keep around. AI cores assigned to techmines could boost the effect.

The AI would, of course, have their own reserves of forges to maintain their equipment, which could be targeted for raids. And there are other scavenger fleets other than the player, which should be able to provide forges to factions from time to time.
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Megas

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 07:00:03 PM »

If they decay, then logically, none can be found because the game begins over 200 years after collapse, and all of them should have disintegrated a few years after collapse.

It seems like you are proposing renewable and unlimited forges while player can rob industry planets and piƱata fleets for forges (that only decay for the player, but not for anyone else because they have a forge factory) much like how player can rob full strength Ordos for alpha cores and Sparks.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 07:01:44 PM by Megas »
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IronBorn

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 08:00:52 PM »

They only decay when in use, not storage. And each faction would have a limited number, with Hegemony having the largest stockpile.

And since the Hegemony already seizes AI cores, I don't see why nanoforges would be considered legally traded tech. They are the most powerful tech in the sector. Should probably be treated like AI cores.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 08:33:58 PM »

Interesting idea. Makes some sense.

For me, in vanilla there is only one reason for sector to die: pirate hordes destroying everything they see. I mean: hey, if player faction can copy such complicated tech like planetary shield, i dont see why cant scientists re-invent blueprints and forges by studying the samples.
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IronBorn

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2020, 08:51:50 PM »

if player faction can copy such complicated tech like planetary shield, i dont see why cant scientists re-invent blueprints and forges by studying the samples.

I always thought Planetary Shield should be an item that cannot be reproduced. Meaning you can only install it at one colony.

And you raise a valid point. Maybe blueprints have to be researched after being discovered? Seems odd the player can instantly produce such complicated technology. A research center with access to a corrupt nanoforge would reduce research by 1/3, while one with a pristine nanoforge would be able to produce them in 1/10th the time. Research centers would have to be built on colonies with heavy industries.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2020, 10:54:41 PM »

if player faction can copy such complicated tech like planetary shield, i dont see why cant scientists re-invent blueprints and forges by studying the samples.
I always thought Planetary Shield should be an item that cannot be reproduced. Meaning you can only install it at one colony.

This is because, IIRC, you get a Unlimited Production Chip from the quest. IE EVERYTHING you need to know to build the shield genny


Quote
And you raise a valid point. Maybe blueprints have to be researched after being discovered? Seems odd the player can instantly produce such complicated technology. A research center with access to a corrupt nanoforge would reduce research by 1/3, while one with a pristine nanoforge would be able to produce them in 1/10th the time. Research centers would have to be built on colonies with heavy industries.

This is because we have the 3D printers for the stuff, but not the files to print said stuff beside the most mundane stuff. And the files for the fun stuff, like guns and ships, is locked behind the DRM that makes companies like EA drool. So they can't be duped. And once you "learn" it, it most likely just tells the factory that you're authorized to produce this stuff
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Megas

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 06:12:59 AM »

If forges are limited like this, then I do not want limited lifespan at all!  I would hate it!

That means eventually, all forges would be consumed and building pristine ships reliably would be impossible.  Without forges, max quality from stability, orbital works, and doctrine would max at about 95 or so percent - not high enough.  Also, after forges are gone, I would be forced to use AI cores to meet demand of some vital structures, especially for megaport and waystation.  After Pather cells get fixed next release, they will probably be a major headache because they are immortal zombies like pirates.  (Currently, bugged Pathers that do nothing serious are a good thing because that is one less babysitting headache to deal with.  The Pather bug is a good bug!)  I would also feel compelled to wipe Hegemony off the map by whatever means necessary to eliminate inspections.

How quickly are forges consumed?  If it is a matter of years, then there should be none available because they would be consumed in the 200 years before the game start.  If not, then there is no point because they will last long enough before the game ends.  Maybe player can use up one or two for really long games.  Probably no more than an annoyance - not worth the hassle.

Re planetary shield
It is a special blueprint.  After it is learned, player can build as many as he wants.

And since the Hegemony already seizes AI cores, I don't see why nanoforges would be considered legally traded tech. They are the most powerful tech in the sector. Should probably be treated like AI cores.
They seize cores not because they are rare and valuable.  It is because the Domain outlawed high AI (Hegemony considers itself its successor, and is trying to restore it) and high AI is dangerous and potentially treacherous.  Alpha AI is more human than human in Starsector.

Forges are just rare and highly valuable tech.  Well, maybe not that valuable in terms of money, just a big ship or a colony structure.  It is not a demon that can kill all humans if it feels like it and gets the chance.

For me, in vanilla there is only one reason for sector to die: pirate hordes destroying everything they see. I mean: hey, if player faction can copy such complicated tech like planetary shield, i dont see why cant scientists re-invent blueprints and forges by studying the samples.
Currently, lore like AI wars make no sense because pirates are stronger than core worlds (because factions do nothing to stop them) and will decivilize them after some years, less than 200.

Players who play until they build an Ordos smasher fleet and quit soon after, probably five or so years, not long enough for pirate raids to do much.  For epic games where player wants to leisurely explore and colonize the sector, that takes decades and worlds decivilizing is a real possibility.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2020, 06:40:59 AM »

Quote
This is because we have the 3D printers for the stuff, but not the files to print said stuff beside the most mundane stuff. And the files for the fun stuff, like guns and ships, is locked behind the DRM that makes companies like EA drool. So they can't be duped. And once you "learn" it, it most likely just tells the factory that you're authorized to produce this stuff
Doom Eternal was hacked in 3 hours after release, lol. Absolute DRM sounds like a wonder from fairy tales (pretty creepy and depressive though...).

And anyway, even if DRM works, you can write your own blueprints without DRM, or (if blueprint just a permission) just build factory that doesnt think, it is smarter than you. Ofc, it can take years, maybe decades, but the sector doesnt die instantly.
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Megas

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2020, 07:30:57 AM »

Starsector DRM, among much else, is magitech, although it is not foolproof.  Some of the pirate hulls are from hacked blueprints.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2020, 07:41:23 AM »

Or just hardware-level copy protection, which really is incredibly hard to crack. It's just not commonly something people run into, unless you work in a field where some of your software comes on an encrypted drive and can't be transferred off it.

(Still crackable, but generally only with a level of effort that costs more than the software.)
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2020, 10:44:15 AM »

Indeed, but you need like twice more money to restore slightly D-modded capital in compare to building new one. So, i d consider to spend some cash to get ability to build what i want. Especially because in long perspective it will be profitable (and even can save life).
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IronBorn

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2020, 10:47:26 AM »

This is because we have the 3D printers for the stuff, but not the files to print said stuff beside the most mundane stuff. And the files for the fun stuff, like guns and ships, is locked behind the DRM that makes companies like EA drool. So they can't be duped. And once you "learn" it, it most likely just tells the factory that you're authorized to produce this stuff

The nanoforges are the 3D printer. So if you don't have a forge, how are you able to produce ships at all? And if you have a corrupted forge, certainly you would have to make adjustments to get the blueprint working. Even on a pristine forge, it should take some time to activate.

And nanoforges really are WMD's, just watch what happens if you give one to pirates. They can completely reshape the sector in balance of power. They should face equal restrictions as seen with AI cores.
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IronBorn

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2020, 10:52:31 AM »

Indeed, but you need like twice more money to restore slightly D-modded capital in compare to building new one. So, i d consider to spend some cash to get ability to build what i want. Especially because in long perspective it will be profitable (and even can save life).

Restoring ships is too easy. Should be limited to only ports with a nanoforge and only pristine nanoforges can remove all dmods at once. Corrupted nanoforges would only remove 1 or 2 at a time. Restoring a ship would also require storing the ship at the port for a time frame equal to the work needed done.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2020, 11:08:13 AM »

Sure, why not... I m almost dont use restoration anyway - cant spend that much money.
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Megas

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Re: Decaying Sector - Limited Lifespan for Forges
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2020, 11:35:59 AM »

I do not use restoration, except for specific ships like Legion14 I plan to use, because it is too expensive.  If it was worth as much as buying a new ship, I might restore more.  By endgame, I only build ships because it is cheaper (no markup, and comes with weapons, supplies, fuel, and crew).  I like that restore can be done anywhere with a spaceport, but it costs too much to be practical.

The point of restore is to get pristine hulls of ships player cannot buy or build.  Currently, that is Legion14.  Next release, probably includes AI hulls.

Next release, when I plan to keep the same ships with built-in hullmods (that consume story points to add), if story points are too hard to build-up (and restore is still too expensive), I may go back to save-scumming fights like in pre-0.8 versions (because it is faster to reload and try again than it is to grind up replacements).
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 11:39:11 AM by Megas »
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