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[bobucles]

Did you just replace the actual descriptions of the items in the game with your own personal headcanon and are now trying to push that alternate fiction onto everybody else? You seem to have a bizarre notion that Nanoforges and Synchrotron Core are massive items. Storing a dozen nanoforges into a single Kite is not a problem.

Yes. And? Join in the discussion, it's more fun than sitting in the corner and slapping everyone who offends your own headcanon.

The nanoforge and synchrotron are described as impressive machines. They are somewhat self assembling, containing the full data (if not necessarily the full materials) of their function. The synchro even takes an active role in its own assembly using nanotech. Impressive. At the same time their jobs are absolutely not small. Their bonuses are not only impressive enough to change the functional capacity of a planet, but a single device can upset the balance of power in the sector. Their jobs are big and their impact on the world is big, so some functional unit of the device must also be non trivial in size. You can't pump 40 tons of antimatter out of a home garage, after all. How many of those pieces of industry are DIY extensions, and how many of those pieces belong to the core itself? It's a pretty intense lore question.

If a nanoforge is such a tiny device, why didn't they pull out a bathroom and install one directly into every old era starship? I'm sure that old humanity would love to have a replicator that can build nearly any thing and fix nearly any problem. The concept of space spare parts (and even trained techies) would essentially disappear overnight. Input problem, receive fix. Easy.

[DatonKallandor]

Just because something is small doesn't mean it's cheap or ubiquitious. In fact, it's often the opposite. The very fact that Nanoforges and Synchrotron cores are so small probably contributes to their value and rarity.

[Plantissue]

Yes. And? Join in the discussion, it's more fun than sitting in the corner and slapping everyone who offends your own headcanon.

The nanoforge and synchrotron are described as impressive machines. They are somewhat self assembling, containing the full data (if not necessarily the full materials) of their function. The synchro even takes an active role in its own assembly using nanotech. Impressive. At the same time their jobs are absolutely not small. Their bonuses are not only impressive enough to change the functional capacity of a planet, but a single device can upset the balance of power in the sector. Their jobs are big and their impact on the world is big, so some functional unit of the device must also be non trivial in size. You can't pump 40 tons of antimatter out of a home garage, after all. How many of those pieces of industry are DIY extensions, and how many of those pieces belong to the core itself? It's a pretty intense lore question.

If a nanoforge is such a tiny device, why didn't they pull out a bathroom and install one directly into every old era starship? I'm sure that old humanity would love to have a replicator that can build nearly any thing and fix nearly any problem. The concept of space spare parts (and even trained techies) would essentially disappear overnight. Input problem, receive fix. Easy.

So you think your personal headcanon is real. As opposed to the actual descriptions in the game So you really have no notion of the entirely real description of the items in the game. Are you for real? Do you occupy the same imaginary space as where you imagine other people on the internet are sitting in a room slapping other people? Do you have your own personal headcanon of what an AI core and blueprint is too? Go on, tell us that too.

[sqrt(-1)]

The vague game canon (which should not be irrevocable anyway) is not clearly describing the size of Nanoforges/Synchrotron Cores.

Even when considering Nanoforges as self-replicative as described, the seed required for such a mechanism would require at least the volume of pure matter required to produce not only another, larger Nanoforge, but also of the machinery needed to refine the pure matter needed for producing entire ships.

As others have already said, it is also physically infeasible that Synchrotron Cores of the size of a cargo hold would be able to produce the anti-matter needed to power dozens of gigantic fleets.

----

The gameplay mechanic of superior interstellar fleet hunters does not exist in the vanilla game. Considering the sector wide significance of Nanoforges/Synchrotron Cores, it would be an immersive reason to introduce this mechanic.
Many fun gameplay details could be introduced besides the basic fleet hunter idea, like the need to conceal the transportation of the units from other faction to avoid attacks.

Clearly, it is NOT just another "bring bigger fleet than enemy" mechanic, since the safe transportation can be achieved by stealth or clever maneuvering as well.
I think it actually finally a new gameplay mechanic that brings great reward for something different than the "bring bigger fleet than enemy" hammer that so far could always win everything in game.

[DatonKallandor]

The vague game canon (which should not be irrevocable anyway) is not clearly describing the size of Nanoforges/Synchrotron Cores.

Except of course the game currently clearly spells out how big they are. In cargo units (hint: they're small). Plus we've had Alex chime in and say the same. It's fine if you want it to change, but to suggest we don't currently know their size is clearly wrong.

[sqrt(-1)]

Except of course the game currently clearly spells out how big they are. In cargo units (hint: they're small). Plus we've had Alex chime in and say the same. It's fine if you want it to change, but to suggest we don't currently know their size is clearly wrong.

That the current cargo size (based on Alex's fiction) is breaking believability and thus immersion is the point we are trying to make. Obviously, my/our point was that a larger size wouldn't be in conflict with the written out canon of the items!

[Rune Wolf]

1. The only reason I have had any success with a playthrough focused on Exploration, is because the Random Number Generator gods finally decided, in Year 5, to place some Alpha AI/Blueprints/Synchrotron Core in a research station.* And I had to pull of a feat of Going Dark and sneaking past Pirate Armadas to get it. (more on that later) This 1million cr "haul" is the only reason I was able to consider having a combat-capable fleet and colonies, prior to that stroke of luck, the game was not advancing.

*I have yet to encounter a Pristine Nanoforge, as opposed to a corrupted one. This has not happened yet in 60+ hours of gameplay.

2. If Random Ship X (you use Ox Tug as an example) is required to transport certain items, what will happen is, they will not be salvaged by a early-to-mid game player.

3. Items not salvaged are gone.* They are effectively destroyed.

*Yes, they are cargo containers, but the "crates" do not remain in space long enough to be returned to, when they are on the Fringe of the map, where an Exploration Fleet is most likely to find these valuable items.

4. Ruins/Station salvage would need to be overhauled, so it functions like Derelict Station storage, for leaving a valuable item behind to be a functional game mechanic.

5. Anything found on Exploration, Survey, and Salvage, is going to be, by definition, far away from the Core Worlds. This means lots and lots of fuel will be used. Multiply the fuel per light-year of any ship an Exploration Ship is going to keep around by 100.

6. Ox Tugs cannot be afforded by an Early-to-Mid game player.

7. No, an Early-to-Mid game player cannot afford an Ox Tug.

8. An Exploration Fleet must make hard economic choices. Everything there must
A. Make money. (E.G. Salvage Rig, Shepherd)
B. Haul Supplies/Fuel/Crew for surveying planets with ruins.
C. Provide Defense.
D. Doesn't belong in the Fleet.

9. An Ox Tug is Case D. It doesn't belong in an Exploration Fleet. It guzzles fuel and supplies, while contributing nothing. It doesn't make money. It can't store enough cargo, fuel, or crew to be useful. It has zero combat capability. An Exploration Fleet, especially in the Early Game, will not be able to afford one without bankrupting the player.

10. Remember when I said I - barely - managed to sneak a Synchrotron Core past Pirate Armadas? This isn't happening if you make it an item that emits a signal. If that were the case, I would have savescummed and not taken the tech haul.

11. How much money do I have left after upgrading my fleet? About the value of that Synchrotron Core. That Core is the only reason I can consider building a colony now. Understand this. Making the game's most valuable items inaccessable, prevents new players from being successful.

This hurts Exploration.
This hurts Salvage.
This hurts Colonies.

12. Please remove the word "fun" from this thread's title. It is an inaccurate description.

-----

Bonus Lucky 13: Fluff-based arguments are incorrect. Carriers exist.

IIRC A nanoforge is a piece of equipment a carrier uses to produce new fighters on demand. A synchrotron core is a specialized nanoforge that produces only fuel. A carrier's nanoforge is specialized to produce only fighters.

From this evidence, we can say:
A. A carrier's nanoforge fits inside a Destroyer-size vessel (Condor, Gemini) just fine, thank you.
B. A carrier's nanoforge takes up less than 100 cargo.
C. A carrier's nanoforge does not "bleed" enormous sensor emissions while in normal operation, heavy-use (combat), or in flight across the map.

[Grievous69]

12. Please remove the word "fun" from this thread's title. It is an inaccurate description.

Yuuuuup. Any system that requires you to have a special ship or something else just to retrieve an item is absurd. Those people just want a sense of pride and accomplishemnt™ and enjoy getting imaginary pats on the backs for doing something ''hard'' when in fact is just tedious and unnecessary.

Also LOL at the guy telling the dev he's in the wrong. What a goofball dear god. ''The hell do you know, it's not like you made the whole video game''

[Igncom1]

Attracting attention from them could be fun, depending on how it is done. But as others have said, yeah it's kinda unknown the real size of these devices but they fit into infrastructure, they are not infrastructure themselves.

The fuel core requires a massive industrial complex to work, but otherwise it doesn't especially need to be any bigger then my own head. Miniaturisation is the future, not always bigger.

The nanoforge could well be as big as the creation engine from the carrier in Hostile Waters, and equally capable to turning a mound of dirt into a fully operational robot battle tank in seconds like in that game. Or it could be some startrek ultimate replicator that is no bigger then my fridge and materialises fridge sized components in a second that could otherwise take months to years for luddite artisans to hand make, if at all.
Being able to 3d print, say, computer systems sounds incredibly handy even if you still need an entire shipyard to put all the parts together.

[Megas]

Yuuuuup. Any system that requires you to have a special ship or something else just to retrieve an item is absurd. Those people just want a sense of pride and accomplishemnt™ and enjoy getting imaginary pats on the backs for doing something ''hard'' when in fact is just tedious and unnecessary.

It is simply yet another item on the checklist to be prepared.  In other words, a fleet slot tax.  Just one more thing to lug around and forget about once it is in your fleet.

[sqrt(-1)]

It is a bit disturbing how a large part of the community radically attacks anything they hastily perceive as in intrusion of the fun/accomplishment they had in game before.
That's not just about this suggestion, but the vast majority of gameplay altering suggestions.

Rune Wolf:

• Skillful players manage to complete the game in a few hours due to the inflated values of Nanoforges and Synchrotron cores which can be acquired quickly when using some finesse.
• Loot can already be stabilized in an orbit.
• Colonies with Nanoforges and Synchrotron are (supposed to be) late-game, since you almost certainly "win" the game with them.
• Ox ships are very cheap and not rare, inferring almost completely irrelevant resource costs in the mid- to late-game compared to the costs of building up colonies.
• The likely need of a preparation of the transportation to the colony to get a tugship allows for an increased challenge.
• Since stealth and skilful maneuvering would allow avoiding interstellar attack fleets, finally a new gameplay mechanic would relieve from the eversame bigger is better content.

Megas: Please just edit the config for more ship slots and add 40 Paragons to your safe file fleet.

[Megas]

@ sqrt(-1):  Disagreeing with a suggestion is most likely not a radical attack.  I already posted my thoughts on the topic, so I shall not repeat them here now.

Loot can already be stabilized in an orbit.

It costs supplies to do this, plus player needs to remember where he found it.  Easier to reload the game, buy the key ship, and loot the piñata properly to begin with.  Loot does not go anywhere until the player disturbs the tomb.  I guess for items acquired through raiding, some ship gets replaced.

Ox ships are very cheap and not rare, inferring almost completely irrelevant resource costs in the mid- to late-game compared to the costs of building up colonies.

Not true in the early game.  5 fuel is a big deal early in the game when fleet is mostly frigates and destroyers, aside from possible starter Apogee.

Megas: Please just edit the config for more ship slots and add 40 Paragons to your safe file fleet.

Adding more slots like that is effectively modding the game.  I have no interest in a mod game.  Plus, 40 Paragons means nothing if I can only deploy two to three of them in an endgame dual/triple Ordos fight.

[DatonKallandor]

The part of the suggestion that's interesting is the idea of becoming a high value target when salvaging special items, and that's been supported by several people (including Alex!). A ship tax is not interesting. And Loot Stabilization is currently not a viable tool in the players toolkit. The orbit decays way too quickly, and the game doesn't mark down stabilized cargo anywhere.

[Megas]

The part of the suggestion that's interesting is the idea of becoming a high value target when salvaging special items, and that's been supported by several people (including Alex!). A ship tax is not interesting.

If something like this happens, it would be nice if aggro happens only if they know of it somehow.  If they spawn out of nowhere all of the time the moment a random grab bag yields a rare item, it stinks of game-master metagaming.  It does not make sense for vultures to appear every time there is a lucky find.

[bobucles]

Loot can already be stabilized in an orbit.

Has anyone had real success with this mechanic? The cost of stabilizing loot can be pretty high, and you're committing your fleet to picking it up. There is absolutely no reason to ever leave something as valuable as a nanoforge behind, and there's no sense in dropping anything except the least valuable loot. So you're stuck pondering whether it's worth stabilizing a thousand metals/organics/food, when the cargo hold is already packed full of drugs and spare organs. The cost is precious fuel, time and supplies, and the reward is saving a bunch of garbage. It's often better to just move on, and maybe sell the coordinates to some other hapless explorer.