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[SCC]

      In practice, I've found Wolf wanting indeed. The difference between it and Lasher is not big. Lasher has 90% of the Wolf's flux stats, while being able to use absurdly more efficient weapons. It can't do much before it has to disengage. Omen and Tempest have similar (better than Wolf's!) flux stats, even though Omen doesn't need nearly as much of it (EMP emitter is its main gun, which uses 500 flux to deal certainly more than 500, maybe even more than 1000 damage, giving it excellent efficiency! And without spamming it, there's still 0.6 shields) and Tempest has two flux-free IR lasers and HEF to help it win flux wars. And Wolf is good at staying alive and that's it.
      Shrike, while fast, has to play around either making its medium missile do the shield breaking, or the other way around. Pirate version is better off, but just because it can mount a single better gun. It has decent defensive stats, but can't bite, exact opposite of its 8 maintenance competitor, Tempest. With the exception that Tempest is good defensively, too.
      Aurora, I'm not sure if it's good enough for its cost, or not. I typically use it as a missile cruiser, with missiles in question being sabots, and while it's great for bullying smaller ships, it typically has to dump all the missiles to tackle same size opponents or even bigger. I should take it for some AI testing, since borderline all of my experience with it is with my own piloting, but unfortunately I'm very short on time currently and I have no idea when will that happen. Odyssey is in a similar spot, since... Well, actually, it's absurdly rare and I have no idea how competitive it is lately, in comparison to Conquest. I liked the ship a lot, once, but carrier rework made flying it busier than previously.
      I dread giving high-tech ships to the AI. It can't do as well as I do, and they are too much fun to let AI accidentally break them.

[Goumindong]

Not only is the wolf only marginally better than the lasher but the lasher isnt even that good on flux stats.

The centurion has 175/105. Higher base, post shield base, and more value from stabs. The brawler is even better at 200/120!

The hyperion and tempest are significant advantages over all of them at 280/112 (hyperion) and 225/180 (tempest).

The omen is a out the same at 200/140 (still better than every mid tech ship).

Oh inhad forgotten the scarab. Its weak at 150/90. Though i am uncertain how much the temporal shell makes up for it. Since shell up youre effectively 450/270.

But we might notice that these are not problems with energy weapons these are problems with like... 2 frigates maybe.

[Plantissue]

Wolf, +1
Tempest, +4
Omen, +2
Shrike, -2
Medusa,+2
Apogee, -4
Aurora,+8
Odyssey, +5
Paragon,+20

Random numbers are random? Explain please.

Apogee is definitely atypical.  It can use a heavy weapon (and a heavy missile), and it has other goodies.  At its best, it punches like a 20 or 22 DP cruiser for the low cost of 18 DP.

At worse it dies to a couple of frigates as it can't ward off frigates as easily as other cruisers can.

In practice, I've found Wolf wanting indeed. The difference between it and Lasher is not big. Lasher has 90% of the Wolf's flux stats, while being able to use absurdly more efficient weapons. It can't do much before it has to disengage. Omen and Tempest have similar (better than Wolf's!) flux stats, even though Omen doesn't need nearly as much of it (EMP emitter is its main gun, which uses 500 flux to deal certainly more than 500, maybe even more than 1000 damage, giving it excellent efficiency! And without spamming it, there's still 0.6 shields) and Tempest has two flux-free IR lasers and HEF to help it win flux wars. And Wolf is good at staying alive and that's it.

Wolf is more useful than Lasher, and for longer. The phase system helps. Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story.

[SafariJohn]

DP adjustment relative to baselines. 4-10-22-40, looks like.

[Goumindong]

Apologies, we were talking “cost” so i listed marginal DP cost with the comparable midline ship. I should have been more flear about what i was referencing. Lasher/centurion/brawler = 4, wolf costs 5 so its +1. hammerhead = 10 and shrike = 8 so shrike is -2. And so on and so forth. Eagle and conquest/onslaught were used for cruisers/capitals.

You could use a domi for cruisers if you wanted but the dominator has even worse flux stats than an eagle and so high tech ships look a LOT better than it in the flux department

[Plantissue]

I see thanks for the quick replies. But why mention it compared to baseline? For instance my "baseline" for frigates is 5. If you are talking about flux capacity or dissapitation, a more useful metric would be flux / DP would it not?

[Megas]

Omen seems built for support.  I tried to use it as an assault ship long ago when skills were stronger, but it is too awkward.  It could be done, just... awkward.  No point trying to force Omen into a typical beatstick.  It would be like trying to force Monitor to do anything beyond being a meat shield.

Tempest seems okay.  It can support a medium weapon, or at least escape.  With speed and drones, seems worth its price.

Scarab does not pull its weight.  It used to during 0.7.2, but not anymore.  Effectively, it is probably a 5 or 6 DP ship.  Temporal Shell does not help enough.  After using it, it can only use one or two small guns.  More than that and flux will build up to max before the shell times out.  (Venting breaks the shell.)  Similar problem of Accelerated Ammo Feeder before it got half flux cost discount.

Hyperion is too expensive.  By the time I kill a cruiser, PPT expires and it is time to retreat.  Just one step away from being a glass sword, without the power.  AI cannot use it effectively.  As it is, maybe worth 12 DP.

I kind of wish Shrike and Shrike (P) merged into one ship.  (Pirates have few other ships that are identical to normal aside from paint job.)  It gets annoying being locked into Sabot Pod with normal Shrike if I want it to kill stuff.  Shrike (P) has annoyingly low OP.

Odyssey with combat skills is strong, but it has to specialize.  If I outfit it like a conventional ship, it stinks and gets killed.  As for being the best, not sure.  It can avoid stuff, but killing things before PPT runs out without making a mistake can be tricky.  It can do what playership Conquest does faster and with less damage taken.  Meanwhile, sometimes Paragon can flatten the enemy quickly (that other capitals need finesse to deal with) while other times, one mistake and it goes down like Onslaught or Conquest.  Odyssey can use large energy weapons, and the gap between energy and ballistics is less for large mounts.  Without skills, I do not know how good Odyssey is compared to others.  AI cannot use loadouts that are devastating under player control.  Plasma Odyssey piloted by AI will burn into a mob to die.  AI Odyssey probably needs that shotgun build.

Paragon seems a bit overpriced.  It is good in player hands, but AI does not seem do much better with it than with Onslaught or Conquest no matter what I put on it.  Under AI control, it seems to perform like a 50 DP ship.  Player might make it worth 60 DP under ideal conditions.

Aurora, I'm not sure if it's good enough for its cost, or not. I typically use it as a missile cruiser, with missiles in question being sabots, and while it's great for bullying smaller ships, it typically has to dump all the missiles to tackle same size opponents or even bigger. I should take it for some AI testing, since borderline all of my experience with it is with my own piloting, but unfortunately I'm very short on time currently and I have no idea when will that happen. Odyssey is in a similar spot, since... Well, actually, it's absurdly rare and I have no idea how competitive it is lately, in comparison to Conquest. I liked the ship a lot, once, but carrier rework made flying it busier than previously.

Under player control, it can solo a mob of smaller ships, that other lesser cruisers cannot do, but it requires some finesse or else Aurora will take too much damage or die from one mistake.  Doom or a capital can just flatten them with less finesse required for only a few more OP.  Aurora under AI control is incompetent.  Meanwhile, AI can use Doom well, and can use a capital more easily than Aurora.  Aurora is probably worth 25 to 27 DP.

Without missiles, Aurora needs to throw everything into vents and hullmods that improve flux stats and shields to win flux wars against equal opponents or mobs.  Does not matter if it is two heavy blasters in turrets, or a mix of (IR) pulse lasers and a heavy blaster or ion pulser in the hardpoint.

The nice thing about Conquest is both player and AI can use it.  It can (try to) do what Odyssey can do, but it takes a bit longer and will probably take more damage.  So it is not as good as skilled Odyssey under player control, but at least the AI can pilot Conquest well enough and not do stupid things.

But we might notice that these are not problems with energy weapons these are problems with like... 2 frigates maybe.

Aurora too, but that could be fixed by lowering the DP cost closer to other cruisers.

Problems with energy weapons is not for high-tech alone, but also midline.  There are not many weapons I want to use over ballistics on many midline ships.

[Goumindong]

I see thanks for the quick replies. But why mention it compared to baseline? For instance my "baseline" for frigates is 5. If you are talking about flux capacity or dissapitation, a more useful metric would be flux / DP would it not?

Maybe but the claim was that they just didnt have a flux advantage. Which they do.

Also because they have other advantages (speed, shield quality) which factor into the DP and make it harder to give a proper estimation. As an example the medusa is not going to out-DPS a hammerhead. But it might/probably will outperform a hammerhead. And if we just looked at flux/DP we might ignore the other advantages.

4 is used as the frigate baseline because the only frigates with DP of 5 or higher are high tech :p. Cant compare the wolf to itself or the tempest can we?

For flux/DP. The wolf comes out behind (waaay behind compared to the centurion or brawler as it has less raw flux than them and thryre cheaper!). The shrike comes out way ahead. Normalized to 10 DP it would have 437 base flux/second and 306 post shield (compared to the hammerheads 250/150) and it would get 25% more value per vent. The medusa comes out ahead but not as definitively. (333 base and 233 post shield). And will be ahead slightly even after vents are maxed

The apogee would win significantly and hilariously if it atabalized shields. And the Aurora would win only if stabalized its shields and the eagle didnt*  (Handily if it stabalized and front shield emmittered). Eagle will always beat it full vent shields down due to vent value increase but not by a whole lot. (And in general i consider shield up value more important)

*which is reasonable because the aurora has more OP and medium energy weapons are better at using up flux compared to ballistic which further saves on OP.

Re: megas... but the doom is a high tech ship...

And frankly I love the aurora as an AI cruiser. I find it really good, especialy at the primary purpose of AI ships which is not dying.

[Grievous69]

Re: megas... but the doom is a high tech ship...

They're in their own category. Some time ago I said a similar thing and Alex responded that they're a thing for themselves, just fancy phase ships.

[Megas]

Doom does not really need energy weapons, although it seems to be able to use two heavy blasters comfortably.  The mine system is really powerful.  Doom do not need much beyond its mines to wreck the enemy.

[Goumindong]

Re: megas... but the doom is a high tech ship...

They're in their own category. Some time ago I said a similar thing and Alex responded that they're a thing for themselves, just fancy phase ships.

Sure but “i dont think the aurora is as good as a doom” has the same issue with the doom being its own class as if it was high tech. The doom isnt a low or mid tech warship... its also 35 DP and its primary non-special weapon are medium energy weapons...

[TaLaR]

Blasters and even missiles aren't Doom's primary weapons, mines are. Blasters are just for convenient frigate cleanup, you don't even get to use them when fighting a capital like Paragon (which can be soloed by skill-less Doom).

[Plantissue]

Doom main weapon is it's mine strike ship system. It really doesn't need any other weapon to be useful. As it is, it seems that people seem to think that High tech ships which uses energy weapon simply aren't fast enough to use energy weapons.

[Schwartz]

I don't see the problem with Energy weapons. They have their own upsides and downsides, such as being paired to the ships that can actually mount them. They don't need to be 1:1 balanced to kinetics, just as missiles aren't balanced to either of the other two.

Some more weapon variety would always be welcomed, though.

[Megas]

I use heavy blasters on Doom because they are on turrets and not on hard points.  Handy for picking off minor threats, or blowing holes on distracted enemies.  I would not be surprised if a Doom mounted four railguns or needlers only and still wrecked fleets with kinetics and mines.

If I do not have good weapons, pulse lasers and light autocannons work too while enemy is pinned by mines.

I like to see a weaker but more effective low-end medium or high-end light hard-flux weapon with at least 600 range.  Pulse laser with 333 flux per second can be a bit too flux demanding for some ships.