Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[intrinsic_parity]

The mining laser is borderline useless IMO. 1.7 efficiency is just so painful. In order to get your enemy in a position where you can do hull damage, you have spend your capacity to win the flux war and you have no capacity left to use the mining blaster to crack armor which is the only thing it is remotely good at.

Mining Blaster is dedicated shield bypass weapon for Hyperion, since even a bit more damage per shot trumps other considerations, but AM blaster's wind-up makes it too slow.
At this point the only question is why is it called Mining Blaster... Name doesn't match actual niche.

Having a weapon that is literally only good on one ship is terrible design. Especially considering that the ship is super niche as well since it is exceedingly rare and costs as much as cruiser while likely not out cruisers levels of value unless the player pilots it and is also very good at piloting it. I disagree that this is a valid reason for it being the way it is.

[TaLaR]

Having a weapon that is literally only good on one ship is terrible design. Especially considering that the ship is super niche as well since it is exceedingly rare and costs as much as cruiser while likely not out cruisers levels of value unless the player pilots it and is also very good at piloting it. I disagree that this is a valid reason for it being the way it is.

Yeah, that's more like happy (for Hyperion) coincidence.

[pairedeciseaux]

Hmmm. Energy weapons conversations seem to always run in circles, like Conquest conversations. You guys are crazy. Hmmm, may I join the fun ? 

Pulse Laser is the best medium size general purpose weapon in the game. Good mounted on many ships from Wolf to Paragon. Good against any ship size. Good against fighters.

Mining Blaster is a very good medium size bust weapon. In case you have forgotten just look at the raw damage it does. Good to overload high flux ship when shot on shield and good to crack armor. One single MB works well on Pirate Shrike, Medusa, Falcon and Eagle - together with support kinetic weapon(s) and good mobility. It works well on player piloted regular Shrike. Now ... sure, you don't wan't to have that kind of weapon on auto fire - but would you put your Antimatter Blaster or torpedo launcher on auto fire ? MB is kind of an alternative to the AMB.

Heavy Blaster often replaces Mining Blaster in my loadouts. It's also my favourite gun on player piloted Wolf. It's a good hybrid between a general purpose weapon and a burst weapon.

Last, IR Pulse Laser is a good light shield pressure weapon and good anti-fighter weapon. I won't claim it's the best general purpose small size gun, but it's a good one. I certainly wouldn't want to loose it's sustained fire capabilities (Re: Meso's suggestions). But sure, alternatives would be welcome (though there already are several in mods).

[Megas]

I don't agree that HAC is similar to the pulse laser. I would say every ship with a medium ballistic mount is happy use the HAC, but many ships with energy mounts struggle to use a pulse laser. The short range and high flux cost just cause the AI too many issues on many ships. Graviton is the only medium energy weapon that is useful generally (i.e. any ship can use it), but it has super low output so it's a waste to put it on ships where medium energy mounts are their primary firepower.

HAC is similar to Pulse Laser not by usefulness, but by design.  Pulse Laser costs 10 OP, and not found at Open Market.  Both appear to be the standard, unlike low-end Mining Blaster/Arbalest, or high-end Heavy Blaster/HVD/Heavy Needler.

I agree that Pulse Laser is not strong enough for those that can use it (Heavy Blaster is probably better), and too flux-hungry for the rest.

Heavy Autocannon is decent, but I do not use it very much for one among a variety of reasons: costs too much flux or OP (on smaller ships like Enforcer), less efficient than Railgun/Arbalest/Heavy Needler, range band does not match Heavy Mortar, too inaccurate, not as good as heavy needler.  Still HAC gets the job done.

Re: Mining Blaster
There is one other ship I do not mind Mining Blaster on:  Apogee during early game.  Autopulse is too weak against enemy orbital stations.  It takes too many hits for autopulse to crack armor.  (Sustained DPS is comparable to medium weapon.)  Mining Blaster will crack it faster.  Good for playership Apogee attempting to solo an incomplete pirate orbital station early in the game.  For early Apogee, I would sooner upgrade missiles to Locusts than mining blaster to anything less than plasma cannon (or maybe heavy blaster).

Still, Mining Blaster is too inefficient and costs too much OP for a junky low-end Open Market weapon.

Having a weapon that is literally only good on one ship is terrible design.

I have similar complaints with other weapons.  Most of all, dumb-fire large missiles (in part because Hammer Barrage is low-end and Open Market common).  The only good ship that can use them well is the Legion (XIV), which we cannot buy, build, or farm.  Gryphon is a bad ship, and the rest cannot use them effectively due to conflict design.  Next release, Radiant may be an option, but that is AI only.

Phase Lance is a runner-up.  Anything I might want it on, I prefer another weapon.  For example, AM Blasters instead of Phase Lances on Harbinger.

[TaLaR]

Heavy Autocannon is decent, but I do not use it very much for one among a variety of reasons: costs too much flux, range band does not match Heavy Mortar, too inaccurate, not as good as heavy needler.  Still HAC gets the job done.

I think HAC is fine if you are choosing between HAC + 5 vents vs Heavy Needler, or need to spent these 5 OP on some critical hullmod. If you've already maxed vents, then Heavy Needler is generally better.
Thought I got quite accustomed to using HAC in 0.9 (since Needler had same 1.0 efficiency).

Phase Lance is a runner-up.  Anything I might want it on, I prefer another weapon.  For example, AM Blasters instead of Phase Lances on Harbinger.

I find 2x Phase Lance the most powerful weapon setup for a Tempest. Of course AI doesn't use it quite as well as a player, but seems to work ok with Aggressive officer too. Plus, Terminator drones in their current iteration are very fragile, staying away and using optics + PL is good way to keep them alive.

[Megas]

I think HAC is fine if you are choosing between HAC + 5 vents vs Heavy Needler, or need to spent these 5 OP on some critical hullmod. If you've already maxed vents, then Heavy Needler is generally better.
Thought I got quite accustomed to using HAC in 0.9 (since Needler had same 1.0 efficiency).

Sure, if I need to give up too many vents, and the ship can deal with the flux load, then sure, HACs go on instead.  I have few alternative loadouts where I use Heavy Autocannon instead of Heavy Needler due to OP cost.

Five vents is probably not a big deal for one weapon on a capital, but twenty is if it is four weapons.

Heavy Needler in 0.9a was awful.  Heavy Autocannon was a near no-brainer in that release.

[FooF]

The Pulse Laser is about as "middle-of-the-road" as you can possibly get in this game but I agree that it tends to hurt smaller ships because its flux profile is still pretty high. We need a medium Energy Weapon that runs about 200 flux/sec that can deal hard flux. Make it fire 1/sec and deal 175 damage for 200 flux/shot. It would hit harder and more efficiently than the Pulse but have lower DPS overall and be unable to hit fighters well. A ship that can more reliably handle the flux cost of the Pulse Laser will find that it is overall better but smaller ships with tighter flux budgets will be able to mount this one and not have the flux issues (and have a decent shot at getting through shields).

[Megas]

If FooF's new low-end, low DPS weapon is to be relied on shields (especially for something like Wolf who cannot use ballistics), it needs to have no worse than 1.0 efficiency (and have at least 600 range).

Heavy Blaster can get away with worse efficiency (than Pulse Laser) because of higher DPS, which may cause the enemy to lose the flux war faster and prevent more damage from hitting your shields, plus break armor faster, which can compensate for inefficiency.  Less damage taken by shields by beating the enemy faster means less hard flux.

Pulse Laser is not only a bit expensive on flux, but its 1.1 efficiency is not great either, especially against other ships' 0.8 to 1.0 efficiency kinetics.

[intrinsic_parity]

If FooF's new low-end, low DPS weapon is to be relied on shields (especially for something like Wolf who cannot use ballistics), it needs to have no worse than 1.0 efficiency (and have at least 600 range).

Heavy Blaster can get away with worse efficiency (than Pulse Laser) because of higher DPS, which may cause the enemy to lose the flux war faster and prevent more damage from hitting your shields, plus break armor faster, which can compensate for inefficiency.  Less damage taken by shields by beating the enemy faster means less hard flux.

Pulse Laser is not only a bit expensive on flux, but its 1.1 efficiency is not great either, especially against other ships' 0.8 to 1.0 efficiency kinetics.

Agreed, I think 600 range 200 dps 180 flux/sec 50 damage/shot or something along those lines. Bad against armor but somewhat efficient against shields, needs some follow up to kill. Maybe even 700 range and possibly a bit less dps if you wanted to make it more unique.

[Alex]

(Just wanted to say that even though I'm not responding a whole lot, I'm very much keeping up with the thread.)

[Limitless]

Hmmm. Energy weapons conversations seem to always run in circles, like Conquest conversations. You guys are crazy. Hmmm, may I join the fun ? 

When you're right you're right

... together with support kinetic weapon(s) and good mobility.

But high tech ships don't have supporting kinetic weapons. Apogee and Paragon don't have good mobility. The frigates and destroyers do have good mobility, but they're mostly locked to energy weapons. Midline is what benefits most here.

(Just wanted to say that even though I'm not responding a whole lot, I'm very much keeping up with the thread.)

Thank you <3

[intrinsic_parity]

Pulse Laser is the best medium size general purpose weapon in the game.

This is only true because it is the only medium size general purpose weapon in the game. I've already stated why I think it's mediocre.

Mining Blaster is a very good medium size bust weapon. In case you have forgotten just look at the raw damage it does. Good to overload high flux ship when shot on shield and good to crack armor. One single MB works well on Pirate Shrike, Medusa, Falcon and Eagle - together with support kinetic weapon(s) and good mobility. It works well on player piloted regular Shrike. Now ... sure, you don't wan't to have that kind of weapon on auto fire - but would you put your Antimatter Blaster or torpedo launcher on auto fire ? MB is kind of an alternative to the AMB.

Every other energy weapon that does something vaguely similar is better. Anti-matter blaster is better (even though you are downsizing the mount), phase lance is better, heavy blaster is better. It only does 700 damage for 1200 flux? Heavy blaster does 500 for 720 flux, anti-matter blaster does 1400 damage for 1500 flux, phase lance does 1000 damage for 1200 flux. There's literally no reason to use it if you have any other options.

[Goumindong]

Heavy Blaster can get away with worse efficiency (than Pulse Laser) because of higher DPS, which may cause the enemy to lose the flux war faster and prevent more damage from hitting your shields, plus break armor faster, which can compensate for inefficiency.  Less damage taken by shields by beating the enemy faster means less hard flux.

That isn't how it works. If you're firing above your own flux you're losing the flux war against someone who isn't unless the shield damage efficiency of the weapon is better than the inverse of their shield efficiency.  The inefficiency of the heavy blaster is made up by the fact that its minimum damage versus armor number occurs at 2883 armor. Which means that at 500 armor its 37.5% efficient while the pulse laser against 500 armor is 15.1% efficient. That against a 500 armor target a heavy blaster takes 2 shots to strip it(for a total duration of 1 to 2 seconds) and consumes 1440 flux in the process(and does hull damage on top) while a pulse laser takes 19 shots to strip for a total duration of 6 to 6.3 seconds and consumes 2090 flux. And because a hammerhead has 500 armor.

[MesoTroniK]

As for medium tactical laser, just give phase lance more range. Medium taclaser won't be anti-shield, you have graviton for that. It won't be EMP, you have ion beam for that. It won't be a poke laser, we have small tactical laser for that. This leaves us anti-fighter and anti-armour beam, and burst. Sounds familiar? Well, there's an alternative of making it an expensive, high power anti-everything beam, but I'm not sure if it would be a good idea.

Phase Lance with more range would be hideously overpowered... Due to the massive burst and being effectively histcan. This would be especially harmful to frigates, and don't most of them become effectively obsolete during a game run fast enough already? This is also in reply to later Phase Lance comments though I don't think I should go and quote a whole bunch of posts heh.

Regarding the IR Pulse Laser buff in theory? Keep in mind this is pure theory-crafting I did not try this nor put too much thought into it... What might be interesting to do Alex is make it fire in double tap bursts, but not like the Heavy Mortar. Give it a 2 shot magazine that also reloads in paired shot clips not a trickle and it could fire 1 or both shots (or more) back to back, this way it can also be souped up with the Extended Magazines hullmod. Overall DPS the same, but would get a bit of burst potential but not really that much. Might also need to be made slightly more flux efficient if something like this happened. Anyways this would not only buff it some, but it would also make it more *fun*, having a burst fire small energy weapon in vanilla and not just another semi-auto one.

Two possible problems, if the burst means less sustained DPS.  1) Will it play nice with IPDAI hullmod?  2) Will the burst matter when damage is low enough that they need to be sustained for a while?

IR Pulse Laser plus IPDAI is passable PD, especially for Odyssey or Conquest.  I find IR Pulse Laser more useful for bigger ships since they get more range after ITU and can afford to bully weaker ships with them.  For something like Wolf, the range is too short, and it does not have the flux stats to support more than one or two.

Megas, I literally said in my post that you also directly quoted that my theory-crafted IR Pulse Laser rebalance would retain the same overall sustained DPS. Though I also said I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it heh, nor tested the concept at all.

@ MesoTronik:
The sweeper appears better on the new videos.  A beam like that, minus the sweeping, is close to what I had in mind.  Four tactical lasers on Eagle is too many mounts taken, especially if I do not have burst PD.  8 DP is a bargain though, or maybe not since the sweeping makes it miss small targets at times.  Your videos show why I do not want Graviton beam in the medium mounts if I want a long-range armor/hull breaker.

Is in your head Megas, I didn't change anything neither in stats nor scripts! A beam like that with those stats and doesn't sweep? Is incredibly overpowered against frigates and fighters but fine against larger ships. The sweeping is specifically meant to nerf them vs smaller targets but not change effectiveness very much vs larger ones along with just making it more interesting of a weapon. And yea 4 Tactical Lasers is too much but I did that so when comparing to dual Heavy Mining Lasers or dual Graviton Beams? Roughly equal OPs was being spent so it was a more fair comparison.

[TaLaR]

Megas, I literally said in my post that you also directly quoted that my theory-crafted IR Pulse Laser rebalance would retain the same overall sustained DPS. Though I also said I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it heh, nor tested the concept at all.

And yet it's still worse for IPDAI use case. IR Pulse is already flux expensive for PD, last thing I want is for them to spike flux usage even more. Among their primary targets are Squalls/Annihilators - burst would overkill initial incoming missiles and then fail to keep them at bay due to reduced dps/rate of fire after burst. Initial overkill followed by dps drop would probably be a problem even against fighters, since weapons tend to select same target.