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[Embolism]

Phase lance is quite excellent, even with 600 range. Its just an anti-fighter/anti-armor weapon and is quite poor against shields - not a great match for high tech ships. On Eagles and Falcons though, its a really good choice.

It's a good choice but I wouldn't call it really good. The issue is it's a 600 range weapon that's further exacerbated by how far back the Eagle and Falcon's energy mounts are compared to its ballistics, so you essentially have shorter range than a high tech ship with less mobility than a high tech ship. You can alleviate that with advanced optics but that's an extra OP tax.

When I'm thinking about 700 range phase lances, I'm actually thinking about how it would compensate for Eagle/Falcon's energy mount positioning.

[Megas]

When I'm thinking about 700 range phase lances, I'm actually thinking about how it would compensate for Eagle/Falcon's energy mount positioning.

For that, I would like 800 range (or more) out-of-the-box (1000 with Advanced Optics).  700 would be handy for other ships, but for something like Falcon and Eagle, more!

Phase Lance's upfront flux cost is a real annoyance at times, especially for Falcon and Eagle.

[intrinsic_parity]

I would prefer an efficiency boost (preferably by reduced flux cost) for the phase lance rather than a range increase, but range is always nice.

[Goumindong]

Phase lance is quite excellent, even with 600 range. Its just an anti-fighter/anti-armor weapon and is quite poor against shields - not a great match for high tech ships. On Eagles and Falcons though, its a really good choice.

It's a good choice but I wouldn't call it really good. The issue is it's a 600 range weapon that's further exacerbated by how far back the Eagle and Falcon's energy mounts are compared to its ballistics, so you essentially have shorter range than a high tech ship with less mobility than a high tech ship. You can alleviate that with advanced optics but that's an extra OP tax.

When I'm thinking about 700 range phase lances, I'm actually thinking about how it would compensate for Eagle/Falcon's energy mount positioning.

No. The shorter range on eagles/falcons is an advantage it lets them more easily target/weapon discriminate between enemies they want to shoot their kinetic guns at and those they want to shoot their phase lances at. The phase lances then get held for anti-fighter/frigate work and not wasted into shields.

If the phase lances were similar range as their main guns they would waste flux transferring their soft flux for less soft flux of the enemy (An enemy has to have shields OVER 1.2 in order for a flux trade into shields to be worthwhile for phase lances)

[MesoTroniK]

Sweeping would kill it as a long-range weapon, unless it was very strong, stronger than Phase Lance, to begin with.

That is not a problem, especially against fighters.  As for frigates, if it has shields, it would probably block it better than Graviton (if it is like old Phase Beam), so that is not a problem, except for enemy Hounds which we want dead.  Such a medium beam should be between Tactical Laser and High Intensity Laser.

P.S.  That sweeping beam video.  Those sweepers were awful, missing the Talons and barely scratching them when the beams hit.  The small PD Lasers in the back were more effective against those Talons!  I probably would not want to mount those sweepers, instead of Tactical Lasers, on my Eagle.

Also, sweeping would kill the point of non-shield damage if target is heavily armored (and the beam is not as powerful as HIL).  Medium already has Ion Beam if player does not care too much about breaking armor and hull after shields are down.

That just isn't the case though, and lets have a talk for a bit Megas and I actually genuinely appreciate your criticism and theory-crafting. It prompted me to do more strenuous testing of the weapon when before it was mostly balanced by feel. As it turns out, my feel was right.

Also in that video where you claimed the PD Lasers were getting more kills? That just isn't correct. The Heavy Mining Lasers bagged 6 Talons, the PD Lasers 5 (1 of which got flamed out and collided), but on top of that? The Heavy Mining Lasers softened up most of those fighters on approach which they then flanked behind and got intercepted by the PD.



Here is the Heavy Mining Laser snapshotting Talons, sure looks like it is not "barely scratching" them.


Here is the Heavy Mining Laser mowing down bombers and their bombs. This can be considered a bonus mechanic, the sweeping not only will hit multiple fighters in a wing at long range, but it will also intercept a fair bit of their ordnance.


Here is the stat card of the weapon. It is balanced at the cost of 2 Tactical Lasers with slightly less raw damage output and flux cost but due to beam mechanics it actually has more armor penetration than 2 Tactical Lasers least when not at long range. It also is added to the Base Blueprints so is known at game start so once again is not considered a "high end" weapon, just a solid workhorse that gets the job done and also is sold in the Open Market and has a mining power in Nexerelin games.


Here is a series of artificial test videos, yes I know these are not real battles and they are also against "blank" variants which means no vents or capacitors, hullmods etc etc. But they should still offer a fair bit of insight and relative performance under easy to observe controlled circumstances!

Here is a pair of Graviton Beams taking 68 seconds to deal hull damage to an Eagle.


Here is a pair of Graviton Beams taking 8 seconds to overload a Lasher, and 19 seconds to deal hull damage (counted after the overload happens).


Here is 4 Tactical Lasers taking 24 seconds to deal hull damage to an Eagle.


Here is 4 Tactical Lasers taking 12 seconds to overload a Lasher, and 6 seconds to deal hull damage (counted after the overload happens).


Here is 2 Heavy Mining Lasers at 1400 range taking 26 seconds to deal hull damage to an Eagle.


Here is 2 Heavy Mining Lasers at 1400 range taking 12 seconds to overload a Lasher, and 7 seconds to deal hull damage (counted after the overload happens).


Here is 2 Heavy Mining Lasers at 750 range taking 24 seconds to deal hull damage to an Eagle.


Here is 2 Heavy Mining Lasers at 750 range taking 12 seconds to overload a Lasher, and 5 seconds to deal hull damage (counted after the overload happens).


Here is 2 Heavy Mining Lasers at 500 range taking 23 seconds to deal hull damage to an Eagle.


Here is 2 Heavy Mining Lasers at 500 range taking 12 seconds to overload a Lasher, and 4 seconds to deal hull damage (counted after the overload happens).


As you can see? They offer *very slightly* worse performance than paired Tactical Lasers against shields, and a bit worse against shielded fighters at long range as well as worse against small targets in general when far off. Against armor at long range they are *slightly* worse in performance than paired Tactical Lasers, but as you close the gap they equal them and then exceed them at armor penetration when up close. Combined with the bonus mechanics mentioned above of both combat and campaign layer mechanics? I believe this weapon is balanced reasonably well, and I hope you agree Megas and that Alex and other modders might find this wall of info useful

While this might be a bit presumptuous of me? I just want to mention Alex that a medium Tactical Laser'ish weapon? Is a very volatile concept, and I know as I been down this road myself while modding. The problem is that they are completely obscene at killing fighters, and frigates! The combination of enough raw damage output to pressure shields decently while also having much more armor penetration than a Tactical Laser? Basically becomes a NO FRIGATES OR FIGHTERS ALLOWED ZONE heh. To the point where not only is it overly effective when used by the player, it also becomes downright unfun to fight *against*.

Yeah, this is a large part of why the HIL ended up with HE damage! Sort of an opposite approach - doubling down on anti-armor, but making even weaker shields counter it well.

The "sweeping" is quite an elegant solution.

The other thing is, well, the Tactical Laser is already there as a possible beam option for medium slots. For ballistics (light AC -> heavy AC, say) at least the range is substantially different, and the heavy version is significantly burstier; generally speaking I don't love adding "exactly the same but bigger" weapons.

That being said, my biggest issue with Energy has always been the lack of hard flux in Small Energy Mounts and the proliferation of Small Energy Mounts (some ships only have them). There just aren't good options to get through shields. I've suggested a few things in the past but I guess I'm in the minority as seeing this as the primary problem.

Improving the IR pulse would hopefully do the job there, I think? It would never be as good as something like an LMG, of course...

(Re: medium tac - right, yeah, at least something would need to be substantially different.)

I actually think the IR Pulse is in a pretty good place it's just there is no alternative to it if you want do deal hard flux. It's a really good jack-of-all-trades weapon but even among generalists, we could use a small energy weapon with a.) more range (but less damage) b.) more damage (but less range/poor accuracy) or c.) something "special" that breaks normal Energy conventions but has a trade-off (high OP, poor flux efficiency outside its given role, etc.). I had a bunch of ideas (wow, it's been two years...!) on this very topic.

I guess where I'm coming from is that no matter how well a weapon fills a role (IR Pulse is a good weapon!), it gets boring being relegated to it every. single. time. I don't think there should be a bunch of "not better but different" weapons in the game but Small Energy is in some desperate need of variety when it comes to straight-forward weapons that do damage.

I feel like the range of the IR pulse is about the extent of what hard flux damage can have in small energy slots before there are problems. It'd also be nice if it was useful on something like the Wolf, which I don't think it currently is... hmm. (Made a note to have another look through that thread, btw.)

Thank you Alex! I am quite happy with the sweeping myself both mechanically and "tech lore" wise since it is a souped up Mining Laser so it sweeping makes sense... Or something. Maybe my rambles and footage up above will inspire you to do something a bit unusual for vanilla if you end up doing a "med Tac Laser" in vanilla later

Regarding the IR Pulse Laser buff in theory? Keep in mind this is pure theory-crafting I did not try this nor put too much thought into it... What might be interesting to do Alex is make it fire in double tap bursts, but not like the Heavy Mortar. Give it a 2 shot magazine that also reloads in paired shot clips not a trickle and it could fire 1 or both shots (or more) back to back, this way it can also be souped up with the Extended Magazines hullmod. Overall DPS the same, but would get a bit of burst potential but not really that much. Might also need to be made slightly more flux efficient if something like this happened. Anyways this would not only buff it some, but it would also make it more *fun*, having a burst fire small energy weapon in vanilla and not just another semi-auto one.

[SCC]

2 PCs will do more damage than a HAG ot Mark 9, but at worse efficiency than either. 2 Pulse Lasers will do more damage than a HAC or a Heavy Mortar, with the same drawback. 2 IR Pulses will not outdamage a Railgun or a LAG and though they beat a dual autocannon, not by much. Most other energy weapons deal much more base damage than their size equivalent ballistcs, except for IR (APL doesn't, but it has burst).

As for medium tactical laser, just give phase lance more range. Medium taclaser won't be anti-shield, you have graviton for that. It won't be EMP, you have ion beam for that. It won't be a poke laser, we have small tactical laser for that. This leaves us anti-fighter and anti-armour beam, and burst. Sounds familiar? Well, there's an alternative of making it an expensive, high power anti-everything beam, but I'm not sure if it would be a good idea.

[Grievous69]

@Alex and people saying we already have options

We have 4! frickin PD weapons just for small slots. Like, no other weapon mount (ballistic or energy) has that many. Yet only 1 weapon that's actually damaging and puts hard flux. AM blaster doesn't count since it's waaaaay too niche, and ships that have the ''small energy problem'' can't really put it because of OP and flux issues. I get that you don't want lazy options like Tac laser, then Heavy Tac laser and then Super Ultra Heavy Tac laser. But we don't have a medium poke option. For example a large weapon that's basically a bigger Heavy blaster wouldn't make sense since we already have Plasma cannon, which fits that role nicely. So while I agree that just having different sizes of 1 weapon is kinda lame, it can improve variety and get rid of ''samey builds''. Or just make a completely new thing, doesn't matter actually.

[Amoebka]

Yeah, there just doesn't seem to be a generally good medium energy weapon in the game. Phase lance is classified as such, but we all know it's a strike weapon. The issue is further amplified by the fact that a lot of high-tech small ships have medium energy mounts (wolf, tempest, brawler, shrike) without the flux capacity to properly use available options. AI is no good at using high-burst high-flux weapons, so having a medium tactical laser would just be a good alternative to simply putting pulse lasers on everything without thinking.

[Megas]

Regarding the IR Pulse Laser buff in theory? Keep in mind this is pure theory-crafting I did not try this nor put too much thought into it... What might be interesting to do Alex is make it fire in double tap bursts, but not like the Heavy Mortar. Give it a 2 shot magazine that also reloads in paired shot clips not a trickle and it could fire 1 or both shots (or more) back to back, this way it can also be souped up with the Extended Magazines hullmod. Overall DPS the same, but would get a bit of burst potential but not really that much. Might also need to be made slightly more flux efficient if something like this happened. Anyways this would not only buff it some, but it would also make it more *fun*, having a burst fire small energy weapon in vanilla and not just another semi-auto one.

Two possible problems, if the burst means less sustained DPS.  1) Will it play nice with IPDAI hullmod?  2) Will the burst matter when damage is low enough that they need to be sustained for a while?

IR Pulse Laser plus IPDAI is passable PD, especially for Odyssey or Conquest.  I find IR Pulse Laser more useful for bigger ships since they get more range after ITU and can afford to bully weaker ships with them.  For something like Wolf, the range is too short, and it does not have the flux stats to support more than one or two.

[TaLaR]

Yep, anything that harms IPDAI use case doesn't qualify as a buff.

[Megas]

@ MesoTronik:
The sweeper appears better on the new videos.  A beam like that, minus the sweeping, is close to what I had in mind.  Four tactical lasers on Eagle is too many mounts taken, especially if I do not have burst PD.  8 DP is a bargain though, or maybe not since the sweeping makes it miss small targets at times.  Your videos show why I do not want Graviton beam in the medium mounts if I want a long-range armor/hull breaker.

No. The shorter range on eagles/falcons is an advantage it lets them more easily target/weapon discriminate between enemies they want to shoot their kinetic guns at and those they want to shoot their phase lances at. The phase lances then get held for anti-fighter/frigate work and not wasted into shields.

If the phase lances were similar range as their main guns they would waste flux transferring their soft flux for less soft flux of the enemy (An enemy has to have shields OVER 1.2 in order for a flux trade into shields to be worthwhile for phase lances)

I find the short range of Phase Lance very annoying on Falcon/Eagle (and other ships).  I need Advanced Optics to get enough range, but then it might make other 1000 range beams (like Ion Beam) too long.  For Falcon/Eagle, I try use Phase Lances (instead of Tactical Laser spam) as a finisher against big ships, but the range is too short without Advanced Optics.  Also, their flux use means I use less ballistics for anti-shield.  (Three Heavy Autocannons use too much flux, but two Heavy Needlers, or a combo of Arbalests/Railguns and Heavy Autocannon, is efficient enough to work with Phase Lances.)  If Pulse Laser's flux/sec were not so high, I would use those instead of Phase Lances if I was content with 600 range.

Yeah, there just doesn't seem to be a generally good medium energy weapon in the game. Phase lance is classified as such, but we all know it's a strike weapon. The issue is further amplified by the fact that a lot of high-tech small ships have medium energy mounts (wolf, tempest, brawler, shrike) without the flux capacity to properly use available options. AI is no good at using high-burst high-flux weapons, so having a medium tactical laser would just be a good alternative to simply putting pulse lasers on everything without thinking.

This!  Also, Phase Lance range is too short for anything aside from non-missile PD (which we also have Heavy Burst Laser) or hit-and-run strikes (from Hyperion, Harbinger, or SO ships).

[intrinsic_parity]

Yeah, there just doesn't seem to be a generally good medium energy weapon in the game. Phase lance is classified as such, but we all know it's a strike weapon. The issue is further amplified by the fact that a lot of high-tech small ships have medium energy mounts (wolf, tempest, brawler, shrike) without the flux capacity to properly use available options. AI is no good at using high-burst high-flux weapons, so having a medium tactical laser would just be a good alternative to simply putting pulse lasers on everything without thinking.

I agree with this a lot as well. The weapon that (I think) is supposed to be the generalist energy weapon is the pulse laser but it is also supposed to be the cheap and commonly available energy weapon meaning it can't be very good. It costs too much flux and has too little range for small ships to use it effectively. There should be another general use hard flux energy weapon for the medium slots IMO. Perhaps something with lower damage/shot and lower flux cost and dps but with better efficiency. It could be a burst weapon or something to make it more unique, or it could have a spool-up time. That would be a perfect weapon for something like the wolf or medusa who IMO are really lacking generally good load outs right now (they either have to go full beam boat or risky high flux loadout).

The way I see it, the pulse laser is closest to the arbalest (mediocre to bad but easy to obtain and gets the job done until you find something better), and the heavy blaster is closest to the heavy needler (rare, powerful, but also hard/expensive to fit into loadouts) but there is no heavy assault cannon for hard flux energy weapons. There should be a gun that generally works well in every loadout but doesn't do anything special or niche.

[Megas]

I think Mining Blaster was supposed to be the cheap Open Market medium energy.  Unfortunately, it has terrible range (for its size) and efficiency, costs 10 OP to mount, and is a borderline strike weapon.  It is ill-suited for brawling.  If mining blaster will stay so inefficient (1.7 or so, that is extreme), then it needs its DP cost lowered to match the likes of Arbalest or Heavy Mortar.

Pulse Laser would probably be more comparable to Heavy Autocannon.

For generalist use, pulse laser is the baseline hard-flux option, and it is a bit too flux-hungry and inefficient to use against ships with efficient kinetics.  (I would not use it over ballistics for a hybrid mount.)  It is on the efficient side for hard-flux energy, just not efficient enough for those with bad flux stats like Wolf, or midline ships looking for efficient energy options to compliment ballistics.

Ion Cannon used to have 600 range, and it was useful despite weak damage.  Good on the middle small mount on Wolf at the time.  Now, 500 is too short for non-strike hard-flux weapons (unless ship was Scarab, but it too does not have much flux to spare).

[intrinsic_parity]

I think Mining Blaster was supposed to be the cheap Open Market medium energy.  Unfortunately, it has terrible range (for its size) and efficiency, costs 10 OP to mount, and is a borderline strike weapon.  It is ill-suited for brawling.  If mining blaster will stay so inefficient (1.7 or so, that is extreme), then it needs its DP cost lowered to match the likes of Arbalest or Heavy Mortar.

Pulse Laser would probably be more comparable to Heavy Autocannon.

For generalist use, pulse laser is the baseline hard-flux option, and it is a bit too flux-hungry and inefficient to use against ships with efficient kinetics.  (I would not use it over ballistics for a hybrid mount.)  It is on the efficient side for hard-flux energy, just not efficient enough for those with bad flux stats like Wolf, or midline ships looking for efficient energy options to compliment ballistics.

I don't agree that HAC is similar to the pulse laser. I would say every ship with a medium ballistic mount is happy use the HAC, but many ships with energy mounts struggle to use a pulse laser. The short range and high flux cost just cause the AI too many issues on many ships. Graviton is the only medium energy weapon that is useful generally (i.e. any ship can use it), but it has super low output so it's a waste to put it on ships where medium energy mounts are their primary firepower.

I think to some extent it is more of a ship balance issue actually. Some high tech ships are very strong in terms of flux stats and ship systems so the energy weapons have to be weak to keep them balanced, but then some weaker high tech and mid tech ships struggle to use those energy weapons because they are too inefficient or short ranged. The pulse laser feels like it wants to straddle those two types of ships but it has only mediocre output for the strong ships and too much flux cost for the weak ships. I would like a weapon with low flux cost for the weak ships and maybe a rare weapon with better output for the strong ships.

The mining laser is borderline useless IMO. 1.7 efficiency is just so painful. In order to get your enemy in a position where you can do hull damage, you have spend your capacity to win the flux war and you have no capacity left to use the mining blaster to crack armor which is the only thing it is remotely good at.

[TaLaR]

The mining laser is borderline useless IMO. 1.7 efficiency is just so painful. In order to get your enemy in a position where you can do hull damage, you have spend your capacity to win the flux war and you have no capacity left to use the mining blaster to crack armor which is the only thing it is remotely good at.

Mining Blaster is dedicated shield bypass weapon for Hyperion, since even a bit more damage per shot trumps other considerations, but AM blaster's wind-up makes it too slow.