Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Megas]

Graviton also does nothing if I win the flux war against them with ballistics alone (like with Gauss Conquest or three needler Eagle), but unable to finish them off due to lack of anti-armor.  I have medium mounts, and it feels lame that only Tactical Laser fits the bill.

P.S.  I often put Gravitons on Eagle mainly for anti-frigate and anti-Enforcer, which is enough to overwhelm their dissipation.  Occasionally, I have considered put Gravitons on Eagle for anti-missile, due to Graviton Beam's quirk for redirecting missiles, and mount placement on Eagle is good for that.  For such loadouts, I have Heavy Mortar/Mauler at one of the hardpoints.

[TaLaR]

Graviton also does nothing if I win the flux war against them with ballistics alone (like with Gauss Conquest or three needler Eagle), but unable to finish them off due to lack of anti-armor.  I have medium mounts, and it feels lame that only Tactical Laser fits the bill.

Yeah, AI rightly laughs in armor-tanking at such builds. Though not so much when Gauss is involved - it does enough damage per shot to get even through Onslaught's armor reasonably fast.

[SafariJohn]

Maybe then we could have another build for Paragon worth its crazy 60 DP cost along with 4 Tach lances.

That's funny, the 4 Tach Lance Paragon got it's ass kicked in round 1 of the tournament a week ago. And it had 3 carriers supporting it vs. the single Wolf supporting the other Paragon.

[Grievous69]

Maybe then we could have another build for Paragon worth its crazy 60 DP cost along with 4 Tach lances.

That's funny, the 4 Tach Lance Paragon got it's ass kicked in round 1 of the tournament a week ago. And it had 3 carriers supporting it vs. the single Wolf supporting the other Paragon.

Ah yes I remember that, its build wasn't really the best so it doesn't actually mean much. Also AI struggles with 4 Tach lances due to flux issues.

[Megas]

Four lances are great in player hands against weaker ships.  Under AI control, it does not use four lances very well.  I tried AI Paragon with four lances against an Ordos, and it died about as fast as other battleships (like Onslaught).  Four lance Paragon is effectively a player-only loadout against serious opposition.

For brawling tough targets like Remnants and battlestations, I probably want something better against shields and more efficient.

[Thaago]

Autopulses are really excellent on the Paragon because it recharges while in fortress shield mode. The effective DPS stays close to its theoretical maximum, while for continuous firing weapons they lose out anytime the system is activated (or vents, or is out of range). The 4 Autopulse Paragon we saw later though had a lack of anti-armor, and turetted autopulse wastes a lot of shots - the earlier winner Paragon is a pretty good build, I like 2 tachs, 2 autopulse in hardpoints.

Regarding variations of the default eagle (3 Heavy Mortar, 3 Graviton): its not a terrible ship for AI hands, and I was pleasantly surprised by it when I did a default variant runthrough of forlorn hope. There aren't that many ships that can fire back effectively while under 600*shields additional flux, and the mortars are good enough HE to keep shields up. And its OP/flux cheap. I have my own favorite eagle build, but I've been thinking of giving this one a try more, or trying to find tweaks. The main issue is that kinetics + 1 ion beam is really, really good for lockdowns.

HILs are devastating weapons if they get through the shield. Compared to a Hephestus: the HIL has roughly the same DPS (500 vs 480), the same efficiency, and slightly more than double the armor penetration (500 vs 240). This is at the cost of soft flux instead of hard. As a specialist anti-armor/anti-hull weapon, very little can match it (tach lance does pretty god but is lower dps), and its a commonly found weapon. But its a specialist weapon: don't use it unless you can generate the situation where its amazing.

[TaLaR]

Regarding variations of the default eagle (3 Heavy Mortar, 3 Graviton): its not a terrible ship for AI hands, and I was pleasantly surprised by it when I did a default variant runthrough of forlorn hope. There aren't that many ships that can fire back effectively while under 600*shields additional flux, and the mortars are good enough HE to keep shields up. And its OP/flux cheap. I have my own favorite eagle build, but I've been thinking of giving this one a try more, or trying to find tweaks. The main issue is that kinetics + 1 ion beam is really, really good for lockdowns.

Sim Eagle loses to better variants on autopilot without inflict more than token damage. Clearly it's a weak variant.

HILs are devastating weapons if they get through the shield. Compared to a Hephestus: the HIL has roughly the same DPS (500 vs 480), the same efficiency, and slightly more than double the armor penetration (500 vs 240). This is at the cost of soft flux instead of hard. As a specialist anti-armor/anti-hull weapon, very little can match it (tach lance does pretty god but is lower dps), and its a commonly found weapon. But its a specialist weapon: don't use it unless you can generate the situation where its amazing.

Well, If I could combine HIL with good kinetic ballistics, I'd do. But there are no such ships. All ships with large energy need to utilize it help their otherwise anemic anti-shield capacity, which makes TL always a better choice.

[Megas]

Well, If I could combine HIL with good kinetic ballistics, I'd do. But there are no such ships. All ships with large energy need to utilize it help their otherwise anemic anti-shield capacity, which makes TL always a better choice.

Odyssey stuffed with lots of kinetic missiles (Sabots, Squalls, and Expanded Missile Racks) can do this.  That said, AI has trouble keeping HIL on target long enough (only the player can do so reliably), so Tachyon Lance is probably better anyway.

Or, if the enemy is weak enough, Odyssey can mount loads of IR Pulse Lasers, park next to sub-capital targets, and after the IR Pulse Lasers cap their flux, let the HILs rip.  It was an effective pirate hunter loadout during 0.9a.

[Plantissue]

Sometimes it can be hard to separate the weapon from the ship hulls that can mount them when discussing game balance.

I wrote somewhere else that weapon ranges of similar types should be more normalised closer together. This is due to the range extending hullmods, which makes the range differences grow substantially. The difference between an IR Pulse Laser and Light Mortar might be 100. By the time large weapons are reached, it is a difference of 200 for the "normal" Ballistic and Energy weapons, but with Integrated Targeting Unit on capitals, it is a difference of 320.

Do the "elite" medium ballistic weapons need to be range 1000, outranging the "normal" large ballistic weapons? Does the Heavy Autocannon need to be +200 range over the Pulse Laser? Especially when the Medusa itself is only 10 speed faster than the Hammerhead? Why is the range difference of the "normal" large ballistic and energy weapon a difference of 200, when the previous medium and small mounts are of 100? It is relative range and speed that matters, not relative weapon range to the categories that matter.

To drag over an argument from another thread, what contributes to the obsoleteness of non-specialised frigates is the weapon range of ballistic weapons on capitals. For normal large ballistic weapons with range 900 and ITU on a capital ship, this becomes range of 1440. The Lasher or Wolf with range 600 will now have to endure 840 range being shot at, before it can enter the range to shoot back. The Lasher for instance has to endure 7 seconds of being shot at. This is not exact of course, since both can try to dodge sideways, or phase skim in the case of the Wolf, or even mount ITU. I guess Safety Overides can also help too, but at that point they really can't be called a normal frigate.

The normal Large Energy weapons do not give such a massive range problem, which is why they seem a lot weaker by comparison as well. Though it must be said that the long range beam energy weapons do a good job of zoning away frigates.

[Grievous69]

Well, If I could combine HIL with good kinetic ballistics, I'd do. But there are no such ships. All ships with large energy need to utilize it help their otherwise anemic anti-shield capacity, which makes TL always a better choice.

On Sunders it's actually really nice coupled with a pair of Gravitons and Railguns/Needlers. Not the best example of the kinetic-HIL combo but it exists.

[TaLaR]

Well, If I could combine HIL with good kinetic ballistics, I'd do. But there are no such ships. All ships with large energy need to utilize it help their otherwise anemic anti-shield capacity, which makes TL always a better choice.

Odyssey stuffed with lots of kinetic missiles (Sabots, Squalls, and Expanded Missile Racks) can do this.  That said, AI has trouble keeping HIL on target long enough (only the player can do so reliably), so Tachyon Lance is probably better anyway.

Or, if the enemy is weak enough, Odyssey can mount loads of IR Pulse Lasers, park next to sub-capital targets, and after the IR Pulse Lasers cap their flux, let the HILs rip.  It was an effective pirate hunter loadout during 0.9a.

Yeah, I don't consider missile based ships for my fleet. Nice for duels or tournaments, but missiles not being reloaded in multi-round combat is too huge disadvantage. And even in single round combat it doesn't have ammo for half it's CR time.

HIL is somewhat useable on Odyssey, but flux balance & control doesn't work out nearly as well as for 2x Plasma build. HIL+Plasma+IR pulses is too much, HIL+ Autopulse + IR pulse doesn't utilize all dissipation (and part that goes to HIL is used extremely inefficiently when it's hitting shield). With 2x Plasma you have full manual controlled weapon that closely matches dissipation, easy to pause firing when dodging to dissipate some hard flux (though not enough time to vent).

Well, If I could combine HIL with good kinetic ballistics, I'd do. But there are no such ships. All ships with large energy need to utilize it help their otherwise anemic anti-shield capacity, which makes TL always a better choice.

On Sunders it's actually really nice coupled with a pair of Gravitons and Railguns/Needlers. Not the best example of the kinetic-HIL combo but it exists.

Right, but replace HIL with TL and you get even better build, with higher ceiling in what it can kill. For Sunder another reason to use TL is that it combines with HEF much better.

[Limitless]

Basically what I’m trying to say is the range of energy weapons is sub par, and the options of what you can even use is very limited

[Megas]

Yeah, I don't consider missile based ships for my fleet. Nice for duels or tournaments, but missiles not being reloaded in multi-round combat is too huge disadvantage. And even in single round combat it doesn't have ammo for half it's CR time.

HIL is somewhat useable on Odyssey, but flux balance & control doesn't work out nearly as well as for 2x Plasma build. HIL+Plasma+IR pulses is too much, HIL+ Autopulse + IR pulse doesn't utilize all dissipation (and part that goes to HIL is used extremely inefficiently when it's hitting shield). With 2x Plasma you have full manual controlled weapon that closely matches dissipation, easy to pause firing when dodging to dissipate some hard flux (though not enough time to vent).

If I plan to use IR Pulse Lasers with HILs, I would use two HILs (or maybe one HIL and one lance), not one plus a hard flux heavy.  That is either too much flux use and/or unable to punish no shield ships long distance when hunting pirates.  Part of the point of IR Pulse Lasers is so Odyssey can use soft flux beams in the heavy mounts, instead of the other way around with small beam PD and autopulse/plasma.

Sabot Pods with Expanded Missile Racks last enough to kill some ships with other weapons.  Handy if an endurance loadout is not good enough.

Not fond of missile ships, but some ships need missiles to be good enough.  I would consider shotgun Odyssey one.  From what I see, two plasma cannon Odyssey under AI control burns to its death, and I prefer other capitals to two plasma Odyssey.  Two plasma Odyssey piloted by player is decent, but I do not see it performing miracles that other capitals cannot do.  If anything, Odyssey is more prone to fatal pilot error.  If I want to give Odyssey to AI, I probably need the shotgun loadout so that it kites and not burn into a mob like an Onslaught to die.

[TaLaR]

If I plan to use IR Pulse Lasers with HILs, I would use two HILs (or maybe one HIL and one lance), not one plus a hard flux heavy.  That is either too much flux use and/or unable to punish no shield ships long distance when hunting pirates.  Part of the point of IR Pulse Lasers is so Odyssey can use soft flux beams in the heavy mounts, instead of the other way around with small beam PD and autopulse/plasma.

Sabot Pods with Expanded Missile Racks last enough to kill some ships with other weapons.  Handy if an endurance loadout is not good enough.

Not fond of missile ships, but some ships need missiles to be good enough.  I would consider shotgun Odyssey one.  From what I see, two plasma cannon Odyssey under AI control burns to its death, and I prefer other capitals to two plasma Odyssey.  Two plasma Odyssey piloted by player is decent, but I do not see it performing miracles that other capitals cannot do.  If anything, Odyssey is more prone to fatal pilot error.  If I want to give Odyssey to AI, I probably need the shotgun loadout so that it kites and not burn into a mob like an Onslaught to die.

Just left side of IR pulses with nothing else uses only about half of available dissipation - that's too much untapped resources to be considered remotely efficient.

I'd say endurance layout is good enough, when player piloted. Very risky in no-skill combat, but probably easy enough to use with proper skills.

Spoiler

Note the moment where Hurricane gets intercepted by PD, because Conquest's shield direction was distracted by Pilums and didn't cover it's launch. Then I finished disabling Mjolnirs and secured offensive vent. Rest is mop-up. Of course, I don't exactly same sequence of events every time, but it's more or less typical of better runs.

[close]

AI Odyssey is out of question - it can only use SO-like loadout fully reliant on missiles. I'd rather get an AI Conquest or Paragon.

[Megas]

Part of the point of IR Pulse Laser in all mounts was all-purpose, PD (via IPDAI) or assault.  It was meant to be sort-of a broadside ship.  Right side is weaker when the only thing that backs up the IRs is Locusts.  It was designed to deal with pirate hordes of 0.9a, when IR Pulse Laser spam was effective against most things pirates threw at the player.  Now, with Atlas 2 spam, and expeditions I cannot always ignore, I do not use that loadout anymore.