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Author Topic: how trading actually works  (Read 16576 times)

mxyzptlk

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how trading actually works
« on: August 21, 2019, 08:43:07 AM »

I saw a topic about a guy saying that if you have more trading ships (cargo hold), you will get better profit on trading missions on bar, is that true? which would be the most "profit" capacity, i mean, is there a limit about having more ships and receiving better rewards? would be cool having a perk that increases your trading skill, getting more profit and minus taxes.

and why i can't buy all excess from a market? i need wait days for it replenish... if i get more ships, i can buy more?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 08:49:40 AM by mxyzptlk »
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xenoargh

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2019, 09:32:41 AM »

1.  Some "bar" missions require thousands of units of cargo capacity, yes.  Whether that leads to "better profit" depends on a bazillion things, like whether you have thousands of units of wasted cargo space flying around, or efficiently buy / sell other goods during the bar mission, etc.

2.  When you measure AM fuel requirements vs. the best high / low trading situations, it rarely if ever works out, but sometimes with a few things (Volturnian Lobsters, for example) it would... if there were enough of them available, which there usually aren't. 

About the only way around this problem is to use the most fuel-efficient trading ships, which tend to be lousy combatants and slow, to boot.  It makes zero sense to use a combat-capable fleet to play trading games.

Generally, if you want to make stupid amounts of money trading, use the Black Markets and hordes of Hounds.

3.  It would be very cool to have the ability to get better tariff rates, etc., through game mechanics, so that trading works, yes, but Alex hasn't done that yet.
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Plantissue

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2019, 10:25:35 AM »

I don't know why, but it seems that the updated version of the game, I no receieve these 200k+ drug and organ missions. Bar missions seem to scale up according to how much cargo space you have. They give you the cargo and you simply goto the colony and deliver it. The only problem is that bar missions aren't always avaiable at whatever colony you happen to be at. But that's ok. There are always procurement missions in your intel bar, and they both type of mssions are so profitable that even with a combat focused fleet, you would be better off doing those bar or procurement missions for the time and risk taken.
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xenoargh

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2019, 01:23:31 PM »

Drug / Organ missions (mainly) spawn in Pirate locations.
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Plantissue

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2019, 04:12:02 PM »

Drug / Organ missions (mainly) spawn in Pirate locations.
I know, that's why I always hack the Comm Array or whatever stable location it is that gives you the messages in systems with pirate colonies. It's just an observation, and I am a sample size of 1.
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mxyzptlk

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2019, 04:22:45 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.
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Locklave

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2019, 10:27:15 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.
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sotanaht

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2019, 04:52:27 AM »

1.  Some "bar" missions require thousands of units of cargo capacity, yes.  Whether that leads to "better profit" depends on a bazillion things, like whether you have thousands of units of wasted cargo space flying around, or efficiently buy / sell other goods during the bar mission, etc.

2.  When you measure AM fuel requirements vs. the best high / low trading situations, it rarely if ever works out, but sometimes with a few things (Volturnian Lobsters, for example) it would... if there were enough of them available, which there usually aren't. 

About the only way around this problem is to use the most fuel-efficient trading ships, which tend to be lousy combatants and slow, to boot.  It makes zero sense to use a combat-capable fleet to play trading games.

Generally, if you want to make stupid amounts of money trading, use the Black Markets and hordes of Hounds.

3.  It would be very cool to have the ability to get better tariff rates, etc., through game mechanics, so that trading works, yes, but Alex hasn't done that yet.
If you want to make stupid amounts of money trading, you need to play an older version of Starsector.  0.7 I think was when you could make a killing off of food shortages?  In current version, you are lucky if you make any profit at all.  Even if you optimize everything it's high risk low reward.

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.
You might make enough to be profitable, but insanely?  Not a chance.  The supplies are too low for that. 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 04:54:24 AM by sotanaht »
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mxyzptlk

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2019, 11:39:14 AM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.

It's not insanely profitable, since i can't even fill my cargo with these stuff and most of markets have around -200 deficit.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 11:46:57 AM by mxyzptlk »
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Megas

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2019, 11:46:35 AM »

The 0.6.5 releases were the ones with the cash cow food runs.  Also featured things like ballistics as clips before becoming unlimited like today.  No officers, but the enemy fleet commander could have all combat skills.  Skills were much stronger, but most only mattered at max level when there was a game changer perk.
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Nysalor

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2019, 11:49:28 AM »

You have to pay a lot of attention to shortages and surpluses. In my game, for example, Chalcedon is consistently short of Marines, meaning they'll pay 300+ for them, and there's almost always at least one system within ~7 light years selling them for ~130 a pop. Even if you pay the tariff on the purchasing end (you shouldn't ever need to pay at Chalcedon, the Pathers have almost no fleet strength) you'll be making over 100 profit per unit per trip, and you can do it a couple of times a month at least. Similar, the pirate Spaceworks - I forget the name, it's in the same area - is always hungry for both kinds of ore, so one profitable triangle tends to be the pirate station in Sindri (buy ores and marines) to the pirate spaceworks (sell ores, buy marines and drugs) to Chalcedon (sell marines and drugs, you might be able to buy organs or might not).

The main trick I think is getting up to a size where you can make those trips profitable. Since trade depends on taking advantage of shortages and surpluses, you need to have several hundred or ideally a couple of thousand free cargo capacity at any given time, so if you end up somewhere that has a discount you can snap the discounted item up in bulk. Landing on a pirate station and unloading 1000 units of drugs or heavy weapons while a shortage is going on could net you hundreds of thousands of credits in one run.

I trade with Pirates and Luddites a lot - they don't patrol much if at all and insist you have your transponder off, so you can use the Black Market all the time which is 60% extra raw profit. Trading with major factions profitably will most of the time rely on either taking advantage of very lopsided shortage deals, or sneaking past patrols while Running Dark, or just dumping all your illegal stuff on the Black Market with your transponder on and then whistling innocently when the patrol shows up to scan you. You can mix BM and open transactions in order to lower your suspicion, which can sometimes be worthwhile; if you spend or earn roughly equivalent amounts in both, patrols usually won't come screaming up your ass right away.

Anyway, point being; it's absolutely practical to make money trading. I do it very inefficiently, in a gas-guzzling fleet that includes capital ships and several dedicated combat vessels, and I still clear two or three hundred thousand a month in trade profit usually; focus on fast freighters and you could probably break half a million per month. If you're careful about smuggling to major powers it doesn't even hurt your rep much.
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sotanaht

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2019, 12:11:46 PM »

The 0.6.5 releases were the ones with the cash cow food runs.  Also featured things like ballistics as clips before becoming unlimited like today.  No officers, but the enemy fleet commander could have all combat skills.  Skills were much stronger, but most only mattered at max level when there was a game changer perk.
I don't think I ever played with ballistic clips, but I did play with cash cow food runs, so I think that feature stayed at least one more patch.  Which version was current in march 2015?  That's when I first started posting here so I know I was at least playing the game then.
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Plantissue

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 01:52:40 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.
This is not true. And there are always plenty of profitable missions anyways. As it is I don't see much value in making normal trading profitable. The game is better without being a farming simulator. Though admitedly, a lot of people seem to enjoy those type of games.
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Locklave

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2019, 02:02:02 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.

It's not insanely profitable, since i can't even fill my cargo with these stuff and most of markets have around -200 deficit.

Trading not being profitable later game isn't the same as early game. I mean you could turn 30,000 into 1.5 million in about 1 hour doing these kind of trades using several Hounds. Tariffs and the way commodities scale based on number of units is basically broken and gets worse the more cargo you can carry. Small ships (less cost) and limited high end cargo works, run D mods and skill for lower maintenance. If you wanted to make millions per trip then no, not insanely profitable. But if you stay small you can make insane profit, insane relative to your expenses. Everything is relative. Profit being double your costs per trip in insane, you not being able to do that with all your cash every time is another issue entirely.

As far as end game and Super freighters there is no profit to be had. 1000 of anything being sold in any one place is enough to make the product worth less then the original cost, let alone the possibility that you could haul 10,000 cargo.
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mxyzptlk

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Re: how trading actually works
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2019, 03:09:00 PM »

Seems that trading must be fixed, it's not profitable if you're trading on your own without doing missions.

If you don't care about hurting your rep or making the pirates/LP strong then dealing Drugs/weapons/organs/troops is insanely profitable.

It's not insanely profitable, since i can't even fill my cargo with these stuff and most of markets have around -200 deficit.

Trading not being profitable later game isn't the same as early game. I mean you could turn 30,000 into 1.5 million in about 1 hour doing these kind of trades using several Hounds. Tariffs and the way commodities scale based on number of units is basically broken and gets worse the more cargo you can carry. Small ships (less cost) and limited high end cargo works, run D mods and skill for lower maintenance. If you wanted to make millions per trip then no, not insanely profitable. But if you stay small you can make insane profit, insane relative to your expenses. Everything is relative. Profit being double your costs per trip in insane, you not being able to do that with all your cash every time is another issue entirely.

As far as end game and Super freighters there is no profit to be had. 1000 of anything being sold in any one place is enough to make the product worth less then the original cost, let alone the possibility that you could haul 10,000 cargo.

That's the problem, you don't want to make 1 hour of trips with ilegal cargo, losing rep to make a million, because you didnt spend this time doing bounties or exploration. It's more harder than everything else. Traders have no place in game on their own, just with missions (if you can get one)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 03:46:03 PM by mxyzptlk »
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