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Author Topic: Missile penetration aids  (Read 6237 times)

Grendel

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Missile penetration aids
« on: March 10, 2012, 01:14:55 AM »

Seems I'm not alone in my dissatisfaction with missiles. Certainly, one CAN use them at the right time, but "the right time" is a pretty narrow case. Sadly, the wee red diamonds of incoming enemy munitions are pretty much the last thing on my mind, as most of the things the AI launches at me aren't actually DANGEROUS.

Please note that all of the following could make for more challenging AI ships. Frankly, I'm tired of completely ignoring LR support fire from enemy AI...

Now, some "missiles" work quite well. MIRVs have an excellent combination of resistance to PD, speed, and homing ability. Too bad you need a large mount, and most ships don't have any. Torps don't maneuver for crap, but they're fairly hard to shoot down and oh $diety they leave a mark. That's awesome, if you can get in position. There's definitely a couple of GOOD torp hulls, but they're not much good for anything else. Rockets? Individually they suck, but since when does anyone launch ONE rocket? Nothing like a ship with a farkton of light, forward-facing mounts. Again, there's a couple of hulls this works on. And the anti-engine missiles? GodDAMN those are annoying. Guess they work just fine :P So, yeah, all the specialty/heavy stuff seems ok, at least to me.

Really, where I take issue is with the SRM/MRM/LRM line. In essence, the "conventional" stuff.

SRMs work if you're small (can get position) and your target is large (can't move) and has crappy PD. From a weapons-geek perspective, the launch-run-align-SLAM profile is pretty much the bread-and-butter kinetic penetrator. Too bad the "align-SLAM" phase has a horrible tendency to miss anything smaller than a cruiser. Seriously, it's fsking painful to watch your missiles line up on where the target was when you launched, about 6 seconds ago. Too bad it MOVED.

MRMs. Well, I've just never found a use for them. Ok, sure, I can make the AI raise shields by firing them, and screw with the no-flux speed bonus. Anything I can REALLY hurt with an MRM is pretty much already borked, and the actual missile itself suffers from the same issues as the LRM...

LRMs. WOW range. 10k units. If you can see it, you can shoot at it. If your long-lost cousin can see it, you can shoot it. Problem is, that FF/DD you're firing on can typically just dodge, and C/BC/BB can shoot them down by the hatful. For that matter, a fast FF can actually OUTRUN LRMs, so you might be better off just running in with a fast ship and gunfarking your target. Oh, you were SHOOTING at a small ship? Yeah, umm, about that...

I've had the point defense on an Onslaught frag the output of 10 or so Pilum launchers without touching shield or armor, and had a SINGLE flak gun keep all 4 Pilum launchers on my (same) Onslaught at bay. And, of course, if you happen to be driving a frigate or fast destroyer, you can literally run rings around the incoming. while your PD slowly kills it. I repeat myself because Pilums are REALLY frustrating. Target's either too fast, or too well PDed. I've never seen anything sub-cruiser hit meaningfully unless already overloaded, and thus pretty well farked anyway. Cruiser + just shoots them down.

So, here's what I suggest.

NOT a global change in missile behavior. Rather, give specialised missile ships a niche. This may involve creating missile hulls, as missiles DO have rather divergent behavior, and expecting a gun or energy-based hull to do well with missiles is a bit of a joke :P

There'd be a missile bonus mod (not unlike the beam range/gun range mods) that'd enhance existing missile weapons, at the usual "I modded my stuff" cost. Then there'd be the "this is a missile hull" situation, where you'd have 1 or more hulls per weight class with good (bonused) missile capabilities and juuuust enough ballistic/energy to provide PD coverage. This non-missile fit needs to suck hard as anything non-PD.

SRMs, given their sort range/shield busting behavior, strike me as a frigate/destroyer weapon. Get in close, volley HARD, strip shields, maybe overload the target, then chew on armor with secondaries. To me, the worst sin of SRMs is that their terminal phase doesn't calculate lead. I'd suspect that if a "bonused" SRM had, oh, 50% more turn rate in its cruise phase and actually considered target movement before going terminal, it'd be a pretty bad day. Sound over-powered? you get THREE shots. Not hundreds.

MRMs. Welp, these are pretty much the definition of vanilla. Well, except that GOOD vanilla is pretty tasty, and stock MRMs are generally only good for mercy shooting ships that are dead already. Make a bonused launcher's missiles faster, more maneuverable, and have more HP. I do NOT expect them to hit fast frigates or fighters, but they ought to be able to RELIABLY hit a poorly PDed cruiser or a slow-to-middling destroyer.

LRMs. Yeah, great. I can shoot across the whole fsking MAP with these. I've got a (npc support) cruiser fit that I like that includes 2 flak guns. 1 port, 1 starboard. It's my cheap flight deck. I've watched it blow the entire output of an Onslaught (4 Pilums) into chunks. With whichever SINGLE flak gun happens to bear. Against anything even a bit maneuverable (fast DD, ANY FF) one can simply MOVE and render Pilums useless. So, for a bonused launcher, I'd cut the fired missiles down from 3 to 2, make the missile HP enough that they take 2 flak hits (since 1 flak will kill the entire 3-round burst), and uprate their damage so's that 2 "new" missiles does the same damage as 3 "old" missiles, thus leaving the actual DPS the same and making the stock 30 rounds last longer. Then, I'd double the missile turn rate and add 25% to their speed so they can actually run down a destroyer.

For the actual "this is a dedicated missile boat/I spent a bunch of OP bonus", I'd push the flight speed, magazine capacity and turn rate of these missiles up by 50% beyond  specific class bonuses, ONLY on bonused/specialised launchers/ships. Finally, I'd crank the HP of every "standard" missile up by 50%, to represent the penetration aids of a specialised missile ship.

This would, hopefully, make "standard" missiles launched by specialised missile ships into a serious threat, rather than an annoyance. I'd love it if an entire volley of Pilums could actually push a few warheads into contact with something, instead of just being a light show. And yes, I'd allow stacking the "I bought a bonus" on top of the "I'm a missile boat" bonus. You'd get a ship that's a local $diety for about 30 seconds.

Finally, I'd love to see a test of these numbers, and some adjustment with the idea that a _specialised_ missile ship should be able to hurt the ever-loving crap out of anything in range, as long as the (VERY LIMITED) ammo holds out. Energy boats work until they die, balancing ammo on a ballistic boat isn't difficult. Allow those 2 classes to be the extended-combat ships. Missile boats could fill the "Shock" role if fitted with S/MRMs, or actually be dangerous support if fitted for dedicated LRMs.

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Dreyven

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 02:36:36 AM »

SRMs work if you're small (can get position) and your target is large (can't move) and has crappy PD. From a weapons-geek perspective, the launch-run-align-SLAM profile is pretty much the bread-and-butter kinetic penetrator. Too bad the "align-SLAM" phase has a horrible tendency to miss anything smaller than a cruiser. Seriously, it's fsking painful to watch your missiles line up on where the target was when you launched, about 6 seconds ago. Too bad it MOVED.
i will just assume you are talking about sabots because swarmers behave differently to what you described
Sabots are fun to use and quite powerfull, if used correctly it is easy to hit anything that's bigger than a frigate and even hitting Frigates is not impossible.
I usually try to avoid putting player skill into the calculation but yes... you need to think before firing your SRMs if you want to hit your target.


also, leading a target is rather difficult, you can only lead the target based on it's movement vector...
any kind of acceleration will cause the missile to miss anyways (negative, positive and sideways)


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MRMs. Well, I've just never found a use for them. Ok, sure, I can make the AI raise shields by firing them, and screw with the no-flux speed bonus. Anything I can REALLY hurt with an MRM is pretty much already borked, and the actual missile itself suffers from the same issues as the LRM...

i hope you mean the Harpoon MRM
The Harpoon is a High explosive weapon, this mean it is NOT used against shield (deals only 50% to shield) however, it deals loads of damage to armor
If you want the Harpoon to be effective you have to plan your assault, launch it when the enemy has a lot of flux and you know you can cause an overload/venting in the time it travels...
at short range you can launch it when the enemy is already overloading or venting

Harpoons are also one of the fastest missiles if i remember correctly


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LRMs. WOW range. 10k units. If you can see it, you can shoot at it. If your long-lost cousin can see it, you can shoot it. Problem is, that FF/DD you're firing on can typically just dodge, and C/BC/BB can shoot them down by the hatful. For that matter, a fast FF can actually OUTRUN LRMs, so you might be better off just running in with a fast ship and gunfarking your target. Oh, you were SHOOTING at a small ship? Yeah, umm, about that...

This was discussed in another thread... the Pillum LRM is a support weapon, even if it doesn't deal damage it will distract enemies
it will force the raising/turning of shields
it will draw PD fire on it, giving your fighters/frigates/other missiles a breather
it will force ships to move out of the way... this will give ships in trouble a breather because the enemy moves out of range or get the moving ship into trouble as it moves into your weapon range... in any case, it's distracting...

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I've had the point defense on an Onslaught frag the output of 10 or so Pilum launchers without touching shield or armor, and had a SINGLE flak gun keep all 4 Pilum launchers on my (same) Onslaught at bay. And, of course, if you happen to be driving a frigate or fast destroyer, you can literally run rings around the incoming. while your PD slowly kills it.

Flak is supposed to do this, it's the most powerfull PD in the game but it requires a medium ballistic mount... you will not see flak on anything below a cruiser because it would hinder the DPS output too much.
And there aren't a lot of fast destroyers anyway :P
Frigates will get overwhelmed by Pillum fire pretty fast when they have to fight enemies at the same time (that's why it's a support missile)


Quote

LRMs. Yeah, great. I can shoot across the whole fsking MAP with these. I've got a (npc support) cruiser fit that I like that includes 2 flak guns. 1 port, 1 starboard. It's my cheap flight deck. I've watched it blow the entire output of an Onslaught (4 Pilums) into chunks. With whichever SINGLE flak gun happens to bear. Against anything even a bit maneuverable (fast DD, ANY FF) one can simply MOVE and render Pilums useless. So, for a bonused launcher, I'd cut the fired missiles down from 3 to 2, make the missile HP enough that they take 2 flak hits (since 1 flak will kill the entire 3-round burst), and uprate their damage so's that 2 "new" missiles does the same damage as 3 "old" missiles, thus leaving the actual DPS the same and making the stock 30 rounds last longer. Then, I'd double the missile turn rate and add 25% to their speed so they can actually run down a destroyer.

that would not be enough, a pillum got 75 life and a flak does 200 damage... you would need to combine all 3 missiles into 1... might make it a bit too strong
it would have double the damage of an Harpoon and nearly have the turn rate and speed of it at double the life
bit OP?


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For the actual "this is a dedicated missile boat/I spent a bunch of OP bonus", I'd push the flight speed, magazine capacity and turn rate of these missiles up by 50% beyond  specific class bonuses, ONLY on bonused/specialised launchers/ships. Finally, I'd crank the HP of every "standard" missile up by 50%, to represent the penetration aids of a specialised missile ship.

Here it get's a tad bit ridicoulous
with all the changes you noted above every kind of missile would be a "dumb fire" missile
you just shoot it and the enemy has no chance of defending itself against it...


also i disagree with the idea in generall
missiles are already a huge thread and there's no reason why a dedicated "missile boat" would not be a threat
a frigate with... maybe 4 small mounts could have 20 sabots/Harpoons (maybe 10 each)
this is enough to take down 3-4 frigates, 1 or 2 destroyers or 1 cruiser
thus making the frigate more than worthwile

a destroyer with... 2 medium mounts can have 42 (i think) missiles
42 missiles... think about it

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UrbanGiraffe

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 09:28:33 AM »

My main beef is having missiles follow a chasing curve rather than leading targets. If the target is even a wee bit faster than the missile, it makes the chance of a hit pretty much zero.
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Avan

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 09:35:21 AM »

I don't like the chasing curve either; fleets have the exact same problem, and should attempt leading the fleet, not chasing it.

icepick37

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 11:11:28 AM »

They DO lead the target. They are much harder to confuse this way. Just leading the target a little more doesn't actually solve anything. You still end up with the same problems.
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UrbanGiraffe

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 01:00:20 PM »

I haven't noticed any target leading, though I've seen some weird stuff that looks like missile strafing. Maybe that's it, but I'm not convinced.

The difference that lead distance makes is that it increases the margin by which a slower missile could hit a faster target, depending on ship positioning and the reaction of the target. In *real-life*, missiles are rarely slower than their targets, with the point of target leading mostly in that the missiles and target are both typically not that maneuverable at high speed, making a chasing curve impractical for the chaser. In Starfarer, having contrivances like missiles slower than their targets is understandable to make the game more enjoyable and skill-based (and also more varied in missile types), but something like intelligent guidance should at least be available. Either a hull mod that upgrades missile tracking algorithms or specific 'interceptor' missiles would do nicely (the swarmer is neat, but something more stompy-stompy to deal with frigates is needed), while preserving the balance of the slower, dumber missiles that just use a chasing curve. Options are ALWAYS a good thing, so long as it's done in a balanced fashion.

That said, anyone who's launched something like a Harpoon from point blank at a frigate such as a Hound knows that there is certainly room for improvement across the board. In a pure chasing curve, the conditions under which a slower pursuer can intercept are few and unlikely, making most missiles often useless on fast targets. The poster is raising a valid point, that I'm sure will be addressed at some point in the future... overall, I'd say the AI is spectacular, so a minor improvement like this would just be icing on the cake.  :)
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Dreyven

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 01:12:30 PM »

I really can't see target lead work at all
it's not like in real life where things have a real momentum... (or at least need a long time to alter this)
this means that the calculatet lead will suddenly become useless or make the missile travel farther then when using a "chase" curve...
the problem is that a lead has to depend on the targets current movement speed, any acceleration in any direction will screw with the missiles course...
just by rapidly jerking in opposite directions you could cause a missile to fly in zick zack... giving PD more time to shoot it
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ArthropodOfDoom

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 11:50:16 PM »

Swarmer pods.
'Nuff said.
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xanderh

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 06:59:30 AM »

This suggestion sounds awfully overpowered. I'm quite satisfied with the missiles as is.

Also, Dreyven, a "dumb fire" missile is the opposite of what you think it is. A dumb fire missile is a missile that goes forward, and doesn't turn at all. Like the reaper torpedoes at the moment. What's described here sounds more like a smart missile, as it will maneuver to optimally hit the target, even avoiding buildings or other obstacles (nope, we do not have modern day smart missiles in this future. They'd be overpowered, and (I imagine) a little tricky to code).
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Dreyven

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Re: Missile penetration aids
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 07:14:41 AM »

Also, Dreyven, a "dumb fire" missile is the opposite of what you think it is. A dumb fire missile is a missile that goes forward, and doesn't turn at all. Like the reaper torpedoes at the moment.
i know that, that is why i put it in quotes...
i didn't really mean the missile with it, i meant the process of firing it XP
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