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Author Topic: Skills and Story Points  (Read 92250 times)

Megas

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #165 on: July 10, 2019, 01:44:03 PM »

I'm not sure about Remnants in player fleets. The idea that the player simply domesticated an Alpha core to play nice with his fleet takes away from the awesome power and alien nature of AI in the game as it is now.
I'd kind of like to see AI ships break free of the shackles with a random chance at low hitpoints, say 30% or so and turn on all ships, friend and foe alike. :)
This is the kind of thing that I worry about actually... If you have something like this then it would make such a high level skill useless. Although I do agree that having AI ships in the fleet is a bit... OP and weird as hell. Especially if you aren't p*** off Anti AI racists factions
If a ship broke free like that, after I spent skill points and other resources to recover and outfit the thing in the first place, my first reaction might be to spend a story point to respec all of my skills and get more useful skills.  (Or reload the game and not take the skill in the first place if it happens early enough.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 02:12:43 PM by Megas »
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Sundog

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #166 on: July 10, 2019, 02:26:56 PM »

This looks amazing!  ;D

Baqar79

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #167 on: July 10, 2019, 06:32:28 PM »

Spoiler
Yeah, I think this is largely being spoiled by LD3 :) A reset to not having it might be uncomfortable, but, well, changes!

Interesting idea as far as hullmods; I'll say I'd as soon not have another type of limiter (i.e. X maximum or some such) - that gets weird implementation-wise (what happens when you lose those ships? sell them? put them into storage? take one from storage? mothball? etc?) but also story points are supposed to be that limiter in the first place.

Have been half-thinking about being able to make just assorted stat improvements to a hull at the cost of story points, without involving hullmods directly, and that's kind of along the same path. It'd have to be very much less story-point-efficient than building in hullmods, though, or individual ship power would go through the roof.
[close]

Yes please!

Whether they take the form of special hull-mods or just something you apply to your ship while at dock as a passive, this would be awesome.  It is something I'm particularly excited about since I love engineering ships (In Elite Dangerous it is one of the funnest bits of the game for me).

Of course losing a ship that had a lot of work on it would be a bit painful then, and I know that if I'm playing Iron mode I'm going to be pretty upset or if it isn't Iron mode, I'll be reloading.

How about the option to invest story points in the deployment screen before a battle to purchase certain combat features.  Since these story points are consumables, they would come with something like that 100% bonus to experience.  Some ideas:

Emergency Repair Drones:
"Deploys expensive one time use drones to apply emergency repairs to patch critical structural damage"
Effect: All disabled/destroyed ships guaranteed to be recoverable, 50% less crew lost
Cost: 1 Story Point

Thruster Overdrive:
"By carefully mitigating the critical concerns of running thrusters beyond their rated specifications, we can temporarily increase their performance"
Effect: 50% additional Speed/Maneuverability,
Cost: 1 Story point, 50% increased CR deployment cost

Fighter Pilot Transporters:
"Installing personal emergency teleporters on our fighters allows our pilots to escape certain death; unsurprisingly it has a rather positive effect on morale"
Effects: No fighter pilot losses, bonus performance (I'm thinking of the additional passives you get at 100% CR, 10% More maneuverability, Damage Dealt, etc)
Cost: 1 Story point, 20 Heavy machinery

« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 06:38:12 PM by Baqar79 »
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Goumindong

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #168 on: July 10, 2019, 06:39:55 PM »

Tachyons aren't that bad. Every Small Energy mount is going to have better range than projectile weapons and hard flux, isn't it?

Nah. Tac Lasers will be the same range as IR pulse with less DPS and the same damage efficiency and while IR pulse is fine no one is complaining about their "raw unadulterated power!"

The main thing i think that the mod will be used for is Graviton Beams on shorter ranged ships. As Graviton Beams with Hard Flux are very efficient (75 cap for 100 kinetic damage) but tend to just annoy ships by reducing their effective dissipation when they're fit on ships that cannot hit out to that range effectively*. If you have slots but don't have cap to fire your guns then the cheap and efficient gravitons with hard flux will have value even if you would do more damage to a longer range with a pulse laser (Pulse does 303 for 333 energy so its .9 damage/flux vs shields) damage that exceeds your flux dissipation can be counter productive( where as graviton would be 2.66 dmg/flux vs shields! )

*Which is the majority of medium explosive damage weapons
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Wyvern

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #169 on: July 10, 2019, 09:29:31 PM »

Okay, another stab at a 'sink' for story points:

Item Upgrade.  Something like:
  • 2x Gamma Core + 2x Story Point = 1 Beta Core
  • 2x Beta Core + 4x Story Point = 1 Alpha Core
  • 4x Damaged Nanoforge + 1x Alpha Core + 4x Story Point = 1 Pristine Nanoforge
  • 4x Damaged Nanoforge + 1x Alpha Core + 2x Story Point = 1 Synchrotron Core
Also, spend a story point to abandon (or maybe even transfer to your commissioned faction or the Independents) a size 5+ colony.

Spend a story point to re-visit a ruin you've already scavenged once - only works once per ruin, and - here's a key part - every planet that you have survey data for at game start counts as having been scavenged once.  (So you can still loot Maxios for random goodies, but only if you're willing to part with a story point.  Edit: and scale bonus XP based on what you get; if it's just commodities and weapons, 100% bonus XP, all the way down to no bonus if you get an alpha core or a capital warship blueprint or something similarly valuable.)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:21:52 AM by Wyvern »
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Cyan Leader

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #170 on: July 10, 2019, 10:40:42 PM »

One other thing I'd like to say is to please consider some of these skill rewards to be things that we have to achieve/unlock through the campaign, like the Planetary Shield. I have no issues with the player being able to domesticate Alphas and use Remnant ships, but that really feels like a reward of a long quest after many arduous challenges (that can justify that ability and show why only the player can do it), instead of it being simply a skill effect.
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Megas

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #171 on: July 11, 2019, 05:20:45 AM »

Suggestion:  If Hammerhead (with free ITU) start stays in the next release, I suggest it gets ITU built-in for free.  One reason why I do not want Hammerhead start (aside that Apogee is so good) is that if Hammerhead dies in battle, it probably will not get ITU back after it is recovered because player probably does not have ITU early in the game.  Hammerhead with early ITU is nice.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #172 on: July 11, 2019, 07:04:20 AM »

Can we choose to build in one mod now and one later down the road? And can we build in mods that are on the ships but aren't known? (Like the starting hammerhead and ITU)
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #173 on: July 11, 2019, 08:55:34 AM »

How about the option to invest story points in the deployment screen before a battle to purchase certain combat features.  Since these story points are consumables, they would come with something like that 100% bonus to experience.  Some ideas:

Was thinking of similar-ish things, though I'm not sure about in-combat effects. But, say, something to get a beat-up flagship back to reasonable readiness before a crucial engagement...



Okay, another stab at a 'sink' for story points:

Item Upgrade.  Something like:
  • 2x Gamma Core + 2x Story Point = 1 Beta Core
  • 2x Beta Core + 4x Story Point = 1 Alpha Core
  • 4x Damaged Nanoforge + 1x Alpha Core + 4x Story Point = 1 Pristine Nanoforge
  • 4x Damaged Nanoforge + 1x Alpha Core + 2x Story Point = 1 Synchrotron Core

Interesting! I like this a good bit, actually - especially if I end up adding a bunch more industry-buffing items with a dergaded and pristine version, that could be a systemic way to get the best version - at a reasonable price. Any thoughts on what the UI flow for this would be? I.E. where would the buttons go?

(Not so hot on the core upgrades, since they make less "sense", where for the other stuff you could reasonably suppose to get the best parts from all of the low-quality units. Still, this also does run the risk of making pristine finds a lot less exciting. Could *possibly* be balanced with a high enough story point cost, but I don't know.)


Also, spend a story point to abandon (or maybe even transfer to your commissioned faction or the Independents) a size 5+ colony.

Hmm, yeah, maybe, could be a decent enough one-off!

Spend a story point to re-visit a ruin you've already scavenged once - only works once per ruin, and - here's a key part - every planet that you have survey data for at game start counts as having been scavenged once.  (So you can still loot Maxios for random goodies, but only if you're willing to part with a story point.  Edit: and scale bonus XP based on what you get; if it's just commodities and weapons, 100% bonus XP, all the way down to no bonus if you get an alpha core or a capital warship blueprint or something similarly valuable.)

Interesting! The bit with scaling bonus XP is necessary, yeah, but I don't know if it'd be enough to counter the save/loading this seems to incentivize. I think just in general spending a story point on something where you don't know the outcome with certainty is trouble - an estimate of bonus XP is always going to be wrong at times.


One other thing I'd like to say is to please consider some of these skill rewards to be things that we have to achieve/unlock through the campaign, like the Planetary Shield. I have no issues with the player being able to domesticate Alphas and use Remnant ships, but that really feels like a reward of a long quest after many arduous challenges (that can justify that ability and show why only the player can do it), instead of it being simply a skill effect.

I could see doing something like that, yeah; was half-thinking about it already. Having big content like this behind skills is something to approach with care, let's say.

The nice thing is the Automated Ships skill could play nicely with this - e.g. the +max CR bonus from it could be reduced to 50%, with the other 50% coming from the quest chain, for example, with both granting you the ability to recover them. Then you'd be able to use them at a low level with either the skill or the quest, and at a high level with both. Something like that could work. But in the (current) absence of the quest... well, definitely an idea to keep in mind for later.


Can we choose to build in one mod now and one later down the road? And can we build in mods that are on the ships but aren't known? (Like the starting hammerhead and ITU)

Yes and yes.

Suggestion:  If Hammerhead (with free ITU) start stays in the next release, I suggest it gets ITU built-in for free.

(You could build it in yourself. If I'm going to go customizing these starting variants, I'll probably just remove the ITU from it since that'd make more sense, imo :))
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Serenitis

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #174 on: July 11, 2019, 09:19:19 AM »

Quote from: blog
story points are “do something cool” points. They let the player do things that would be overpowered or game-breaking if the player could just do them whenever, or even at a regular resource cost.
Can I use story points to unlock more skills?
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #175 on: July 11, 2019, 09:22:53 AM »

Per the blog, you can use them to unlock the elite levels of combat skills.
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Wyvern

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #176 on: July 11, 2019, 09:24:58 AM »

Not so hot on the core upgrades, since they make less "sense", where for the other stuff you could reasonably suppose to get the best parts from all of the low-quality units. Still, this also does run the risk of making pristine finds a lot less exciting. Could *possibly* be balanced with a high enough story point cost, but I don't know.)
In terms of being a story point sink, the core upgrades is vital.  You only ever truly need one pristine nanoforge, for example, but you can always use more alpha cores.  (Well, okay, until you've got the entire sector colonized, I suppose?)

As for making it make lore-sense - perhaps this is something you can only do if you have an alpha core on hand already to oversee the component redistribution?  Perhaps this sort of upgrade is a matter of getting the right networking together - quantum-synchronizing the lower-grade cores so they operate as a unit - much like how in the modern world, computer clusters or cloud computing have largely overtaken singular supercomputers?  Maybe it even requires a specific building (Black Research Facility) that all but guarantees Pather interest - and requires heftier bribes for the Hegemony to ignore?  (I'd imagine that, like the Planetary Shield Generator, this is something you'd find via quest, rather than just build.  I'd also imagine that Tri-Tachyon already has one that you can use for a fee.)

Where to put the UI... that depends a bit on the requirements.  If you need a Black Research Facility, then maybe that just adds a person to the local comm listings?  If I were trying to mod this in, that's probably how I'd do it.
The other "obvious" option would be to add a fourth tab to custom production: ships/weapons/fighters/special, with the "special" category being for random unique stuff that frequently has non-credit costs or requirements that aren't just "has heavy industry somewhere".  This would also let you tie upgrades into the blueprint system - maybe you start with the blueprint to create Beta Cores from Gamma Cores, but the rest are things you'd need to find?

The concern about making pristine nanoforge & synchrotron core finds feel less special is sensible, though, and one I don't have a good answer for.  On the other hand, in my most recent game, I've taken to just selling corrupted nanoforges, since I literally have no use for them.

...Oh, a minor suggestion: if you sell a nanoforge or synchrotron core to someplace that can install it, you should get a significant rep boost with that faction.  Or, alternatively, there should be a way to hand one over to the local administration, similar to the 'hand in AI cores' option.
Suggestion:  If Hammerhead (with free ITU) start stays in the next release, I suggest it gets ITU built-in for free.

(You could build it in yourself. If I'm going to go customizing these starting variants, I'll probably just remove the ITU from it since that'd make more sense, imo :))
I really like the hammerhead start with ITU; it feels storied in a way that the other starts (aside from Spacer) don't.  Here's this ship that you could not possibly have outfitted yourself.  Where did you get it?  Perhaps it was a decommissioned military vessel that you burned bridges acquiring as part of a retirement package.  Maybe it's an ancient hand-me-down from your mother, and from her mother, and so on back for generations, which has been refit and retuned so many times by so many different people that it's no surprise it's above stock specifications.  Maybe it was a lucky find at a tech mining site, that you kept quiet about until you could round up a crew to get this completely pristine domain-era warship off planet under your command.
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SCC

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #177 on: July 11, 2019, 09:38:48 AM »

How about the option to invest story points in the deployment screen before a battle to purchase certain combat features.  Since these story points are consumables, they would come with something like that 100% bonus to experience.  Some ideas:

Was thinking of similar-ish things, though I'm not sure about in-combat effects. But, say, something to get a beat-up flagship back to reasonable readiness before a crucial engagement...
The more ideas you have on those points, the more I want for the game to cheat against me if I use them. Do this, do that, do everything wonderpoints. If I can cheat, so should the game.

Interesting! I like this a good bit, actually - especially if I end up adding a bunch more industry-buffing items with a dergaded and pristine version, that could be a systemic way to get the best version - at a reasonable price. Any thoughts on what the UI flow for this would be? I.E. where would the buttons go?

(Not so hot on the core upgrades, since they make less "sense", where for the other stuff you could reasonably suppose to get the best parts from all of the low-quality units. Still, this also does run the risk of making pristine finds a lot less exciting. Could *possibly* be balanced with a high enough story point cost, but I don't know.)
Starsector will become early access, open world, survival, crafting game, to finally catch up with the times, I see! I think that unless you're planning on making a completely new interface for it, my best bet would to extend Custom Orders screen utility. Doing this from cargo screen wouldn't work, since you don't really use anything from there, making it a campaign ability would be fairly weird, and using intel screen to handle this would be oddly hack-job-y. Custom Orders seem to be the easiest interface to be repurposed for that, but I wouldn't be surprised if you decided against it, on the ground of not being good enough.
In addition to that, I think that I would only allow you to create "close, but no cigar" items, like a decayed nanoforge or a synchrotron sub-core.

Spend a story point to re-visit a ruin you've already scavenged once - only works once per ruin, and - here's a key part - every planet that you have survey data for at game start counts as having been scavenged once.  (So you can still loot Maxios for random goodies, but only if you're willing to part with a story point.  Edit: and scale bonus XP based on what you get; if it's just commodities and weapons, 100% bonus XP, all the way down to no bonus if you get an alpha core or a capital warship blueprint or something similarly valuable.)

Interesting! The bit with scaling bonus XP is necessary, yeah, but I don't know if it'd be enough to counter the save/loading this seems to incentivize. I think just in general spending a story point on something where you don't know the outcome with certainty is trouble - an estimate of bonus XP is always going to be wrong at times.
Since raiding become for blueprints become acceptable without save scumming, I don't think this is necessary.

I could see doing something like that, yeah; was half-thinking about it already. Having big content like this behind skills is something to approach with care, let's say.

The nice thing is the Automated Ships skill could play nicely with this - e.g. the +max CR bonus from it could be reduced to 50%, with the other 50% coming from the quest chain, for example, with both granting you the ability to recover them. Then you'd be able to use them at a low level with either the skill or the quest, and at a high level with both. Something like that could work. But in the (current) absence of the quest... well, definitely an idea to keep in mind for later.
I would prefer quests or some specific things that are still open enough to allow multiple ways of completion. For +15% CR skill, for example, you would have to attain cooperative standing with any of the factions, so that they lend you their skilled officers or kickstart your own training facilities.

Per the blog, you can use them to unlock the elite levels of combat skills.
And respec, for the first time! I almost missed that green button.

Megas

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #178 on: July 11, 2019, 09:40:20 AM »

Suggestion:  If Hammerhead (with free ITU) start stays in the next release, I suggest it gets ITU built-in for free.

(You could build it in yourself. If I'm going to go customizing these starting variants, I'll probably just remove the ITU from it since that'd make more sense, imo :))
I do not need ITU to build it in?  That would be nice.

The point of building it in is player does not have ITU when starting a game, and probably will not get ITU for some time.  Hammerhead with ITU is very nice (assuming no SO chaingun abuse), since DTC is not an option for destroyers.  Without it, Apogee is a total no-brainer to start.

I guess if Hammerhead loses ITU, then I suppose SO Chaingun spam might be the way to go... after player finds some, or just pick Apogee for the superior of the two fast starts.
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Alex

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Re: Skills and Story Points
« Reply #179 on: July 11, 2019, 11:38:14 AM »

In terms of being a story point sink, the core upgrades is vital.  You only ever truly need one pristine nanoforge, for example, but you can always use more alpha cores.  (Well, okay, until you've got the entire sector colonized, I suppose?)

As for making it make lore-sense - perhaps this is something you can only do if you have an alpha core on hand already to oversee the component redistribution?  Perhaps this sort of upgrade is a matter of getting the right networking together - quantum-synchronizing the lower-grade cores so they operate as a unit - much like how in the modern world, computer clusters or cloud computing have largely overtaken singular supercomputers?  Maybe it even requires a specific building (Black Research Facility) that all but guarantees Pather interest - and requires heftier bribes for the Hegemony to ignore?  (I'd imagine that, like the Planetary Shield Generator, this is something you'd find via quest, rather than just build.  I'd also imagine that Tri-Tachyon already has one that you can use for a fee.)

Hmm, yeah. Turning it on its head, it might make more sense as *just* an AI-core feature. Then the uniqueness of the other items isn't affected, and Alpha Cores are already not-as-rare. Present it to the player as "uplifting" or some such, maybe. And this would go a ways towards adding industry-related story points uses; right now there's Combat (elite skills), Leadership (officers etc), and Technology (special hullmods - there's a skill that boosts this), but nothing for industry.

Where to put the UI... that depends a bit on the requirements.  If you need a Black Research Facility, then maybe that just adds a person to the local comm listings?  If I were trying to mod this in, that's probably how I'd do it.
The other "obvious" option would be to add a fourth tab to custom production: ships/weapons/fighters/special, with the "special" category being for random unique stuff that frequently has non-credit costs or requirements that aren't just "has heavy industry somewhere".  This would also let you tie upgrades into the blueprint system - maybe you start with the blueprint to create Beta Cores from Gamma Cores, but the rest are things you'd need to find?

(It occurs that a right-click action could be the way to go here, too.)

I really like the hammerhead start with ITU; it feels storied in a way that the other starts (aside from Spacer) don't.  Here's this ship that you could not possibly have outfitted yourself.  Where did you get it?  Perhaps it was a decommissioned military vessel that you burned bridges acquiring as part of a retirement package.  Maybe it's an ancient hand-me-down from your mother, and from her mother, and so on back for generations, which has been refit and retuned so many times by so many different people that it's no surprise it's above stock specifications.  Maybe it was a lucky find at a tech mining site, that you kept quiet about until you could round up a crew to get this completely pristine domain-era warship off planet under your command.

That's cool! Totally the sort of thing I'm hoping fo story points to encourage :)
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