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Author Topic: War on Vanilla  (Read 21726 times)

SCC

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War on Vanilla
« on: May 25, 2019, 11:59:23 PM »

I am angry, angry about balance. This thread by its very premise is negative, which doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy Starsector at large, it’s just that there’s very little sense in telling people to change something that’s good.
Thanks to Certain Ungrateful Malaysian Mongolian Scumbag (this is what you get for acting obstinate), MesoTroniK and Avanitia for help.
Weapons:
      Small energy weapons just don't cut it. There is a variety of weapons that fill various niches, but there isn't actually a weapon that is good for actually dealing damage. IR Pulse is the closest and it's not that efficient and also terrible against armour. You're more liable to drive your own flux up instead of the enemy's. Relying on IR Pulses for dealing damage is simply unviable, even if you supplement them with other small energy weapons, like Ion Cannon or Anti-Matter Blaster. This doesn't matter most of the time, as most ships can also use other weapons... Unless they can't and then you get to thoroughly experience how wanting the small energy weapons roster is. There needs to be added another general purpose small energy weapons, regardless of whether IR Laser gets any buffs or not.

Fighters:
      Xyphos’ design is broken. They’re a pair of fighters with some point defence and 1200 range ion beams, that also keep close to your ships by virtue of being support fighters. They don’t have to fly to the enemy anyway, because they have enough range. Since they keep close to ships they support, this sometimes includes actually hiding behind them or hovering over them. This makes Xyphos completely invulnerable at times and hard to counter otherwise, whereas their firepower is very significant, if not directly harmful. 800 combined and EMP DPS gives the escorted ship an advantage that the enemy cannot get rid of, unless the Xyphos AI makes a mistake, with little counterplay otherwise. And since it’s flux-free for both the escorted ship and the fighters, you can’t shut it down sans for destroying the fighters. Ion Beams aren’t a good thing for fighters to have.

Hullmods and d-mods:
      Logistical hullmods aren't very good, design-wise. Increased Maintenance, Compromised Storage and Erratic Fuel Injector aren't either. Erratic Fuel Injector perhaps least so, fuel is cheap and it’s not hard to stock on it with tankers, but it can become relevant when you’re out in woods exploring and you’re close to getting stranded. Increased Maintenance and Compromised Storage are both boring, uninteractive d-mods that only serve to increase your running costs. They can also serve as a justification for inclusion of Efficiency Overhaul, but it feels shallow. D-mods make you pay a little more and EO makes you pay a little less for everything. It also increases CR recovery rate, which is the most interactive and useful thing about it.

Ships:
      Scarab is basically "small energy weapons don't cut it" personified. It has many mounts and thus much OP, but some mounts aren't worth anything and we can skip them. Its ship system is quite good, but since weapons are not, it doesn't get terribly much mileage out of it. One of the ways to use Scarab that provides the biggest payoff, comparatively, is to use it as a beam boat, PD or not, but that is a very frivolous use of 8 supplies per month and the crew's sanity.
      Shrike is a... Some people like it, but that's not the topic. The issue here is that Shrike (P) also exists. Let's assume a test scenario, where a normal Shrike gets an IR Pulse and a pirate shrike gets a railgun, and normal Shrike gets to spend difference in OP for additional vents. IR pulse with 7 vents has a 80/150 efficiency against shields, railgun with no vents has 150/334 efficiency, 53% vs 45%. That's on top of railgun's much higher range and the fact that one railgun can substitute two IR pulses in terms of damage against shields, allowing the possibility of using heavy blaster or phase lance in the medium slot as an armour breaker, or to use something else than sabots in missile hardpoint. The reason why pirate Shrike is so much better is, again, that small energy weapons can’t stand on their own at all. Perhaps normal Shrike should get the hybrid mount as well. Having pirate Shrike lose hybrid mount would be a boring way of equalising the versions and Shrike in general would be worse off for it.
      Atlas mk 2 might not be conceptually bad, it’s too early to tell. The only outstanding feature of it is Accelerated Ammo Feeder on a capital ship. This is typically a red flag on mod ships, since AAF on a capital ship is a very dangerous concept and easy to mishandle. Atlas mk 2 makes up for it in its bad flux stats, but it’s still a precedent. Hopefully people won’t get some stupid ideas from it.

Ship systems:
      Astral has Recall Device, which is kind of akin to fast missile racks and missile autoforge. Gryphon with something like that would be broken, by just spamming missiles and getting them back instantly for some flux. Astral is worse, because its missiles (fighters) have 4k su range, more than any non-carrier can retaliate from. And another difference is that most missiles rely on high damage spike every so often, while all non-bomber fighters accrue damage over time. Recall Device doesn't do much to fighters, but it refits bombers nearly instantly, making them that much more important and useful, effectively warping Astral entirely around Recall Device and bombers, because everything else is very much suboptimal. Recall Device should have charges, a charge down or charge up, some limiting feature like Targeting feed does and most other ship systems. Astral is also just 45 DP and that is a serious understatement of its capabilities.
   Reserve Deployment could be called the second side of the coin that is Recall Device, not affecting bombers and boosting all other strikecraft instead. It increases damage of the carrier, by increasing the number of fighters in combat, especially so for fast fighters, while also having the ability to negate some or even all damage dealt to fighters, especially so for fighters with long refit times. With a couple of drovers it’s very easy to mass fighters, so much that eventually the enemy cannot deal with them at all and damage is spread among them all, enough that it doesn’t knock out any fighters and your carriers are effectively unhindered in any capacity by the enemy fire. Reserve Deployment shouldn’t outright provide additional fighters, at least not directly.

      Last but also the biggest culprit of them all, mine strike. It's not just strong, it's outright overpowered and broken while at that. There are several problems with mines. First off, they are strong and spammable. 2000 HE damage times 5 mines on a Doom, and even more on high-tech station. Doom can use mine strike when phased and station’s modules don’t have shields, so it’s very hard to stop either from spawning mines. Mines can also spawn wherever they wants, with the only limit not being able to spawn within ship's shield radius. This is fine for slow ships, but it doesn't take a target's speed into consideration, so it's possible to spawn mines in situations where the target has no feasible way to avoid them, due to its momentum. In addition to that, you can spawn mines on top of fighters (and since they're fast as well, you could also abuse tactic previously mentioned), which makes them explode instantly and can serve to instantly set off mines that have enemy ships within their blast radius, without the target being able to do anything about it.
      Mine strike can attack also from behind the ship without being there. Doom can, for a pretty low cost, break one of the expectations of combat, that being "backwards is safe, that's where ships retreat", by spawning mines behind ships, meaning that they can be, at any point, instantly surrounded, either taking mines with no counterplay or opening themselves to Doom attacking it personally. High-tech station, on the other hand, has unlimited (?) range and, due to there being to modules, has even more mines to magic out of thin air. All the features of mine strike compile into the best “press to destroy everything” F button in the game.

Grievous69

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2019, 01:47:28 AM »

Weapons: Yea lots of people already said this since energy weapons got their dmg boost from flux removed. And also they had the advantage of not having ammo before, now even I started using more low tech and midline ships since I have better results with them, and I god dang love high tech ships. Take a look at frigates, low tech frigates can put pretty much anything on them and actually be useful (Centurion, Lasher and so on), now with high tech, you either put beams, or watch AI die with actually decent weapons but killing itself from flux. First time I got my hand on the Scarab I was so eager to try it out, only to see you can't do much with it.

Fighters: Completely agree with what you said.

Hullmods and d-mods: Not gonna lie, I put Efficiency Overhaul on almost every ship I have, it just makes the campaign layer less tedious. On the other hand, as you said these d-mods are super boring. They have absolutely no effect on combat, which the game is all about, they just make your fleet require more stops to stock on supplies. Pretty damn stupid if you ask me.

Ships: Scarab, a heavy frigate with a fancy ship system. Only thing that's heavy here is its cost.
           Shrike: Now that the pirate version was introduced, I can't see why would anyone want a normal one in their fleet. I'm actually starting to like the Shrike (P), but Jesus allmighty something needs to be done with the original thing.
           Atlas mk 2: I had kinda bad first impressions with the ship, since it's basically a cargo ship with just weapons all over, but it grew on me. Only 24 DP (less than big Dom) for this big boy. Sure you'll never use it in late game but it's decent enough to use early.

Ship systems: All that I can say is thank god AI is not competent enough to fully abuse these, that would make anyone ragequit. Although I'm kinda ok with Doom having such a strong ability, its cost is really high considering its weaponry. Now mines as mines are cancer, they shouldn't be effective against everything. With Doom you can just *** any ship with omni shields.
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TrashMan

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2019, 02:23:17 AM »

I have to disagree with the D-mods thing. Logistics is part of the gameplay and hullmods that affect maintainance/fuel/speed are there for a reason.
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Baqar79

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2019, 02:57:58 AM »

This is no reflection on how I feel about the game (The game is awesome regardless of whether these things change or not), but I'll have a bit of a moan about a few things that you bought up:

Weapons:
Yeah, small energy weapons are pretty underwhelming; I definitely think though that IR Pulse lasers need a buff especially.  They do 100% damage against everything so are ok on their own (not sure why their range isn't 600 like their ballistic counterparts however), but having a pair of IR Pulse lasers is certainly weaker than a Dual-Autocannon/Assault Gun combo, since when going up against a damage type that one of the weapons isn't good at, that weapon will still contribute an additional 25% to overall damage (200% damage for the weapon that is good against that defense type, 50% for the one that is weak against it, while the IR Pulse lasers will do 200% damage (being in pairs 100%x2)).

Fighters:
I kind of disagree here, I've used Xyphos with the Converted Hangar mod several times and I've never found them much of a contributor to damage (nothing like say Broadswords in terms of damage).  They're also pretty expensive OP-wise as fighters go, although I wouldn't mind if they had their Ion Beam swapped for a Graviton one for a little extra shield pressure.

On another note, I think the Gladius needs a huge helping of buffs.  They're supposed to be tough ships, but I've found their survival rate abysmal compared to Broadswords (500 hull & 75 armour for 2 Gladius fighters vs 750 hull & 200 armour for 3 Broadsword fighters), even with their speed advantage.  They're also not that much better armed (4 x Light machine guns 2 x IR Pulse lasers vs 6 x Light machine guns on the Broadsword wings), and the Broadswords are cheaper to boot.

Hull Mods:
Well I don't mind the inclusion of Erratic Fuel Injector or Compromised storage, but am really not a fan of Increased Maintenance.  If I'm going to be flying around in D-modded ships I'm likely at a stage in the game where I want to keep expenses down, so seeing an "Increased Maintenance" D-mod is pretty much a scuttle-sentence on the ship.  Fuel from the Erratic Fuel Injector does something similar, but fuel is only a 1/4 of the cost of supplies...so I can tolerate this D-mod providing there isn't too much else wrong with the ship.

Ships:
Well this pretty much ties into the lack-luster small energy weapon options.

Ship Systems:
Not really much to comment on, except that I have yet to really make use of Doom's in combat; or any Phase ships for that matter.  Since I tend to hit the CR limit for my Apogee's quite often, I tend to avoid the Phase ships since I worry about running out of CR on those ships, which is usually pretty expensive to replace.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 03:12:47 AM by Baqar79 »
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Serenitis

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2019, 04:04:17 AM »

Well I don't mind the inclusion of Erratic Fuel Injector or Compromised storage, but am really not a fan of Increased Maintenance.  If I'm going to be flying around in D-modded ships I'm likely at a stage in the game where I want to keep expenses down, so seeing an "Increased Maintenance" D-mod is pretty much a scuttle-sentence on the ship.
An alternative way to look at Increased Maintenance:
IM doubles the supply cost for maintenance, and increases the crew required by 50%.

If you have field repairs 3 IM now reduces the aggregate maint cost by 20% for each dmod.
If you have safety procedures 3 IM now only increases the maint cost by 50% and the crew requirements by 25%.
If you have fleet logistics 2 you have now reduced the overall maint cost by a further 25%.
If you equip Efficiency Overhaul you have now entirely mitigated the extra maintenance costs, and are left with an extra 5% crew required but also have greater CR recovery and lower fuel useage.

As a very industry heavy "junk fetish" player, Increased Maintenance is a gift to me. It's a free 20% cost saving on that ship with no downsides other than it has to visit a dock to have EO put on it.
Of course this requires that you take the above mentioned skills, which not everyone will want to do because different playstyles etc.

Erratic Fuel Injector is somewhat similar. But less so as fuel is generally harder to come by "in the wild", so it's just more noticable when you use it even a tiny bit quicker.
Compromised storage though is a pain. Cargo space is one of the major limiting factors for salvaging on the fringe, and there's no way to mitigate it that doesn't involve dock equipment, which I'm already using both slots of so I can't use any more without giving up things I don't want to give up.
It's not an "omg get rid of this immediately" thing, but it's probably going to be replaced when I get somewhere I can do that.

I'm more annoyed with the (tiny) fleet limit tbh.
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goduranus

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2019, 04:19:01 AM »

ships don’t cost very much, and credits are plentiful, would it be a good idea to take D-mods to buff up your fleet especially if you also have to sacrifice ordinance points and a dock-modification slot? I almost never take any d-mod ships, I restore all the ships, except for weakened hull and armor on carriers.

Also, Shrike and Scarab, mount Antimatter blaster on the small energy mounts, the speed boost from either ships’ special system makes AM blster very devastating.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 04:24:14 AM by goduranus »
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Igncom1

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2019, 04:39:04 AM »

ships don’t cost very much, and credits are plentiful, would it be a good idea to take D-mods to buff up your fleet especially if you also have to sacrifice ordinance points and a dock-modification slot? I almost never take any d-mod ships, I restore all the ships, except for weakened hull and armor on carriers.

Also, Shrike and Scarab, mount Antimatter blaster on the small energy mounts, the speed boost from either ships’ special system makes AM blster very devastating.

I'd say to restore anything that is worth keeping and is hard to kill anyway. Frigates are all easily replaceable, even the high tech ones, and so can be bought and expended in combat quite easily. Hell I frequently find pristine ships on the black and open markets all the time, so even then it's not so much of a worry.
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Baqar79

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2019, 04:41:50 AM »

An alternative way to look at Increased Maintenance:
IM doubles the supply cost for maintenance, and increases the crew required by 50%.

If you have field repairs 3 IM now reduces the aggregate maint cost by 20% for each dmod.
If you have safety procedures 3 IM now only increases the maint cost by 50% and the crew requirements by 25%.
If you have fleet logistics 2 you have now reduced the overall maint cost by a further 25%.
If you equip Efficiency Overhaul you have now entirely mitigated the extra maintenance costs, and are left with an extra 5% crew required but also have greater CR recovery and lower fuel useage.
Hmmm, I should of looked at the numbers closer.  Just bought a Paragon with 2 D-mods including my dreaded "Increased Maintenance" one to test.  Stock, it actually already uses less Supplies than my pristine one.  I ran through the numbers and managed to arrive at the same values.  I pretty much always take those skills above, so while it isn't enough to completely offset the increased maintenance cost with those skills, a significant portion of it is.

Seems the multipliers work just by stacking them on top of each other, for example with that Paragon I purchased with 2 D-Mods:
Paragon base cost: 60
Increased Maintenance (50% with Safety Procedures 3): 60 * 1.5  = 90
D-Mod 1 Maintenance reduction of 20% (Field Repairs 3): 90 * 0.8 = 72
D-Mod 2 Maintenance reduction of 20% (Field Repairs 3): 72 * 0.8 = 57.6
25% Maintenance reduction (Fleet Logistics 2): 57.6 * 0.75 = 43.2

Which corresponds with the exact value I see in game.

So seems I was mistaken.  It isn't as bad as I initially thought (on provision I keep taking those skills, which I likely will each play-through).

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Grievous69

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2019, 05:16:39 AM »

Also, Shrike and Scarab, mount Antimatter blaster on the small energy mounts, the speed boost from either ships’ special system makes AM blster very devastating.

Now that you mentioned it, why the hell does AM blaster still have ammo? Sure it needed to be limited when CR wasn't a thing, but now it's only viable on frigates or SO ships.
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goduranus

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2019, 07:55:24 AM »

I could never bring the AM blaster into range without a SO ship or frigate or shrike anyways, the enemy is pretty good at avoiding it, unless they are in an absolutely crap ship.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 08:19:06 AM by goduranus »
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Igncom1

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2019, 08:00:06 AM »

What's the word on tac lasers? I've been trying to use them more lately but perhaps I'm just using the wrong ships?

I've also considered using them with turret gyros and AI point defence mods to try and make them do all weapons for small energy slots, any one else have experience with this?

Perhaps paired with mass graviton beams they are great or something.
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goduranus

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2019, 08:20:53 AM »

I think they are only good for when you're in the Odyssey or Astral and bullying smaller ships with them, otherwise they are way too inefficient.

Alex

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2019, 08:37:08 AM »

I have to say, with a title like that, I was expecting something more foundational :)

Took a look; made a few notes. Some responses:

Small energy weapons are meant to be basically support for <whatever else>. This helps maintain their utility when small slots are found on larger or non-high-tech ships, and helps to differentiate them from larger energy weapons, which tend to be more about firepower.

The Scarab is indeed an outlier here in that it's the only vanilla ship that's entirely dependent on small energy slots. It's an "experimental" frigate for a reason! Though I do agree its layout could use some adjustments; it's an experiment that didn't quite hit its goals both in-universe and out. But my point is that using it as an example of why small energy weapons  "don't cut it" doesn't work since it's specifically meant to break the ship design rule of "don't depend solely on small energy weapons" and see what happens. Basically meant to be a weird/support type of ship, with a powerful system to make up for shortcomings - but, again, yeah, could use some tweaking. Made a note.

As far as Recall Device and Reserve Deployment, yeah, I definitely agree. Mainly need to figure out how to rein them in; this is more of a problem for Reserve Deployment since any kind of regular use system that replaces all fighter losses is trouble by default. I just like the idea of fighters temporarily getting larger wings but... well.

As far as Mine Strike, it's meant to be strong and a bit unfair, yes. That's the general design goal for phase ship systems. For the Doom, it's stronger than usual because the Doom is quite underwhelming when taken by itself, it needs a lot of extra push. Maybe it's too strong now, but it's basically a capital ship (phase ships punching one size above, generally), and it's fun to fly, so the only thing I could see doing with it is possibly increasing its deployment cost, or perhaps tweaking mines a bit to be slightly less good vs frigates.

Thank you for the feedback, btw! Definitely got me thinking about a couple of things I wouldn't be otherwise.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 08:39:01 AM by Alex »
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Megas

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2019, 08:40:55 AM »

Small energy weapons are underwhelming.  That said, IR Pulse Laser with IPDAI is good multiple purpose PD/assault when place on a capital (Conquest/Odyssey/Paragon).

The main thing that annoys me on weapons is lack of a good 800+ range medium HE weapon.  Heavy Mauler used to be that before 0.9.x, but now anymore.  Now, my go-to HE weapon is Heavy Mortar.  Also, Heavy Mauler is still has significant inaccuracy for a sniper weapon, and if it will not get its DPS back, I would like to see its accuracy improved.  Runner-up is an upgraded medium tactical laser for medium mount, and graviton beam is not it.  Would not mind seeing classic Phase Beam (when it was continuous) back, upgraded to 1000 range and worth only 10 OP (was worth 12 DP probably due to EMP component).  Phase Lance is a disappointment that it is mostly a Pulse Laser without the hard flux.  It is only good as an AM Blaster substitute for Harbinger.

I do not like Xyphos because it is generally the fighters' job to hunt down and kill distant threats, and Xyphos cannot do that.  The only ship I have used Xyphos on is Odyssey because it has become a close-range brawler in 0.9.x, and Odyssey stinks at fighter spam (not enough fighter bays).  Even then, Xyphos is costly enough that if I need tanky fighter escorts to distract, Mining Pods do that job for free.  Xyphos Ion Beam is not as long as many other ship's long range attacks, so unless the ship is designed to fight up-close, like Odyssey, Xyphos is underwhelming.  Now that Xyphos does not use flux on its weapons, I kind of wish it had its Phase Beam/Phase Lance plus burst PD it used to have back.  Phase Lance was replaced by Pulse Laser when it used flux to fire weapons (both drew too much flux), then Ion Beam, when it no longer uses flux to fire.

The new Increased Maintenance and Erratic Fuel Injector (D) mods are very annoying.  Now, I am more likely to scuttle ships, and I reload games more because the drain caused logistical hullmods, especially Erratic Fuel Injector, hurt on big ships.  As for compromised storage, I usually pass on logistical ships that have them, but they are minor on combat ships.

Like Grevious, I put Efficiency Overhaul on almost everything.  I like it most for the fuel savings, since I do not have Navigation... yet.

Scarab was great in 0.7.2 when AI was less cowardly, skills were stronger, and Atropos were great.  Its system enabled use of 500 range weapons without getting slaughtered.  Since its glory days, Scarab has not aged well.

Shrike (P) is a better ship than basic version, though lack of OP is very annoying.  Still, Shrike needs that hybrid to fight with non-beam loadouts well.

Atlas 2 has awkward mounts, kind of like Apogee.  It needs Accelerated Ammo Feeder to have firepower better than a cruiser.  Even then, they are fragile.  Most annoying thing about Atlas 2 is pirate armadas overuse them.  Some pirate fleets is little more than a bunch of Atlas 2 supported by either few token ships or just as many Ventures.

I would not mind Astral if there was another capital-sized dedicated carrier as an alternative that was not focused on bomber spam.  (I do not consider Legion a dedicated carrier, even if the game does, because Legion has fewer bays and fights better as a warship.)  Astral would have been good for fighter spam during 0.8.x., but since those fighters were nerfed, only bombers are worthwhile now.

Reserve Deployment is not what it used to be.  It stinks on bombers (it does not replace enough to staunch rate drop).  Maybe it is better on fighters.

I like Mine Strike.  Makes Doom more useful as a brawler instead of a glorified bomber like the other phase ships.  Their should be more systems like it so AI can brawl well in phase ships (like they used to when cloak did not have cooldown or time shift) instead of fliting about and doing almost nothing until their peak performance expires.  Doom is about as expensive as a capital, and it better be powerful to be worth the cost, and Mine Strike does not disappoint.

Quote
What's the word on tac lasers? I've been trying to use them more lately but perhaps I'm just using the wrong ships?
It use them as a cheaper graviton beam substitute if I cannot stack enough graviton beams to overcome dissipation.  If the main purpose of 1000 range beam is to pile a little more damage after shields are down, tactical laser does the job just as well as graviton beam for less OP cost.  I often put tactical lasers instead of graviton beams in medium energy mounts.

I also use Heavy Blaster and Tactical Laser combo instead of two Pulse Lasers for comparable performance at less OP cost, especially on a Tempest.

Tactical lasers can be useful for PD, but they are flux intensive.  If the ship can still support them, then tactical laser PD is excellent.  Advanced Turret Gyros gives +75% turn speed in 0.9.x, instead of +50% before, so tac laser PD works well today.
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Megas

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Re: War on Vanilla
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2019, 08:50:32 AM »

@ Alex:  If anything needs to be done with Doom, I recommend raising DP cost to 40.  As it is, it is a match for a capital.  Doom is fun to use, and fun to let the AI pilot.  The only problem with Doom is enemy Doom stacks, which is another reason to deathball my fleet so my ships can PD mines immediately.  Maybe higher DP cost will mitigate that.  I wished the other phase ships were as useful for AI.  I can trust Doom in AI hands.  Not so with other phase ships.  The problem with phase ships smaller than Doom is they can only do strike or glass sword loadouts well, basically a glorified bomber wing of one.

Also, Shrike and Scarab, mount Antimatter blaster on the small energy mounts, the speed boost from either ships’ special system makes AM blster very devastating.

Now that you mentioned it, why the hell does AM blaster still have ammo? Sure it needed to be limited when CR wasn't a thing, but now it's only viable on frigates or SO ships.
Now that ammo does not recharge between rounds and fights are bigger, AM blaster ammo matters again against huge endgame fights that require multiple rounds to finish.
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