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[FooF]

I want to like the Shrike, I really do, but every time I try to pilot one, it feels inferior to the other "main" destroyers like the Hammerhead or Sunder. I understand it's an opportunistic light destroyer: it's not meant to go toe-to-toe with sturdier destroyers or cruisers but even when I get in good positioning, it just can't do anything to exploit those opportunities.

Currently, if I pilot a Shrike, I find myself able to maneuver fairly well but due to the various inefficiencies of Energy weapons, I take too many hits on shields trying to get close enough to fire and/or my weapons just can't pressure another ship's shields before I'm nearly flux capped myself. I'm OK with the current setup of Small and Medium mounts but outside of some AM Blaster setups (which are hard to find), the Shrike lacks striking power for an opportunist. A Harbinger is flat out better at alpha-strikes and a Medusa is better overall. Even a Sunder is better for the "glass-cannon" role because it can at least generate major DPS for a time.

Suggestions:

Increase OP to 90: The Shrike has the lowest ordnance points of any combat destroyer. This has to be intentional but I don't understand it. Being OP-starved, the Shrike can barely get in a basic loudout that fills all weapon mounts (i.e. no high-end weapons like AM Blasters or Heavy Blasters) while also maxing vents and still have room for a few choice hull mods. All the other destroyers can with a little to spare. So, you're asked to either sacrifice weapon mounts, use lower quality weapons, skip good hull mods, and/or sacrifice vents/capacitors. I'm ok with meaningful choice and sacrificing but the Shrike is too lean everywhere.

Increase top speed to 110: The Shrike's lone saving grace is that it's fast: but only by virtue of its mobility system. It is not particularly faster than its slower, sturdier destroyer cousins. If it's going to be opportunistic, it needs to be able to get in and out quickly, which the latter is much more difficult to achieve with the mobility system. At present, I find myself being able to engage well but disengaging is another story.

Change forward-center Small Energy mount to a Small Universal: Simply put, the Shrike is extremely inefficient at generating shield pressure. Either its Medium Energy mount is flux inefficient and/or short-ranged or it uses its Medium Missile mount on Sabots, which have limited ammo. No small Energy weapon generates hard flux besides the IR Pulse and AM Blaster and they also do so flux inefficiently and at short range. For the Shrike to get an enemy to drop shields, it has to trade shots (which its flux stats are poor at) or have very good positioning. But the real kicker is that even if you can get into a great position, the Shrike has no striking power. You can pew pew away with a Pulse Laser and IR Pulse or knock out weapons with an Ion Cannon but heavier weapons like the Heavy Blaster can't be sustained and Missiles run out. As a beam boat, sure, it can stay at arm's length and contribute but in that case it can't do anything that Wolf can do. (As an aside, the Shrike is IMO objectively worse than a Tempest in just about every respect despite being a class larger and not particularly worth 2 Wolves, which it is in direct comparison to).

Changing a small mount to a Universal would open weapons like Railguns, Autocannons, or even LAGs to efficiently deal with shields or do damage once you get in the right position. Even having an extra Reaper or Atropos available would give the Shrike more bite. Alternatively, a Salamander or Annihilator would go a long way in giving the Shrike more versatility.

[Megas]

I have similar sentiments.

It is OP starved, just like pre-0.8 Hammerhead.  While I can squeeze Reinforced Bulkheads or other campaign mod on the other established destroyers.  Shrike lacks the OP for it.  In addition, lack of OP means I often downgrade missiles to small (Salamander) or mounts get left empty.  The only time I might consider Shrike is if it has an officer, but they have better ships to pilot.

Unskilled Shrike is too clumsy.  It does not turn fast enough without mobility perks, and it does not have the OP to afford Auxiliary Thrusters.  Its top speed may be fine (or not, I don't know), but its turning speed without skills is too slow.  Without more turning speed, Shrike with Plasma Burn is like a rocket that cannot turn and can only go mostly straight ahead like burn-driving Onslaught.  If my unskilled Shrike outmaneuvers the enemy, it is too clumsy to take advantage of an opening before the enemy turns around and Shrike is back to square one (or worse).

P.S.  I get annoyed with the missile hardpoint.  I wished it swiveled like the left mount, and I sort of wished it was synergy so it can fire another medium energy weapon, but that means no small Salamander, and Shrike probably does not have the flux stats to support two medium energy weapons.

P.P.S.  If AI cannot be made to outmaneuver and take advantage of openings, it would be nice if Shrike had better defenses, maybe a better shield.  Same deal with Odyssey, too!  What is with AI that treats all ships with a burn-style, forward-only mobility system to charge in like a (suicidal) berserker that can tank everything thrown at it, even if the ship is flimsy?

[SCC]

Part of the issue is that there small energy weapons aren't very useful in primary role. Scarab is way more hurt than this, but at the moment small energy weapons are additional beams (tactical laser), not-torpedo, EMP gun and PD. IR laser is supposed to be general purpose, but it's just so ineffective. Of other weapons, only tactical lasers could be useful in primary role, but that requires you to really commit to beam spam, at which Shrike isn't really any better than Wolf is. In fact, there are two frigates, Wolf and Vigilance, that are generally the same thing that a Shrike is, with Shrike being better only at brawling (which none of those ships can really do it). There's also the fact that Shrike is more likely to get destroyed, even though it's tougher than both of those frigates, mainly because of AI faults with plasma burn usage.

[Alex]

One thing to keep in mind here is the Shrike is a light destroyer, and should be inferior in combat power to the Medusa, let alone the Harbinger (which in its current state is the most OP ship in the game, and which at least design-wise should be roughly equivalent to a cruiser in power, which phase ships generally being meant to have a strength of one size higher).

Let me change its burn to 10, actually - that should make it a little more clear where it belongs on the power spectrum.

So basically it can bully smaller ships, or act as support for larger ships (which really includes other destroyers). In terms of it being a player ship... the player I think tends to skate by the sweet spot for its use too quickly. I've got half a mind to increase the buy costs of ships, especially larger ones - this would both extend the early game, which right now feels a bit too quick - and would give ships like the Shrike more room, since they could be meaningfully cheaper to acquire than other destroyers.

[Megas]

I am not sure if raising ship costs will help extend the game too much.  In the games I played, I bought very few ships from core worlds (and of those, one was Harbinger, another was a beat up cruiser, and the rest are logistics ships like Prometheus), and nearly all of the new ships I acquired were recovered from the enemy or found derelicts.  Late in the game, I rely on my colonies to produce what I do not recover, either custom order for pristine stuff or loots remains of my patrols (that die defending my colonies) for clunkers.

[SCC]

It might be a light destroyer, but Tempest is still better than it, though then again, Tempest might be undervalued at the moment...

[xenoargh]

The Shrike's problems are obvious.

1.  The System lets it down, by restricting movement to directly forward.  The Shrike can't side-strafe or back up enough to get out of range after closing to nibble at opponents with its lousy-range Energy weapons.  And the shield goes down, which is a huge disservice.

2.  The Shrike's lack of range, Capacity and Dissipation combine to make it far weaker than its opponents.  Ideally, it should have a System that doesn't take the shield down and enough Capacity to get in, do damage, then leave.

3.  The System's almost perfectly designed to shaft the AI.  Really.  At best, the AI could use the Shrike opportunistically, but even then, it's rather difficult to code that so that it's going to be useful.


I'd say that the Shrike can be fixed by increasing the Capacity and not letting the shield drop, but that still makes the Shrike a one-trick pony, and even worse of a glass-cannon than the Sunder.  The System doesn't serve it well as a kite design; even with the meager single Medium slot, it simply cannot contribute much.

So, how to fix?  The Shrike's meant to be a High Tech Enforcer-like, kind of.  Therefore, it needs to have the durability to get in and stay in a fight.  Here are some solutions:

1.  Greatly improve the Capacity, but not the Dissipation.  Like, 2-3X.  Shrike tanks shield damage very well, but Vents slowly.  Inverse to Enforcer, basically.

2.  Make the System first take the Shrike forward, then backward- further than it went forward- with the Shield up.  Now the Shrike can get in, do damage, and leave (meeting the High Tech theme here).

3.  Give the Shrike a different System entirely; perhaps give it increased Energy range to make it a temporary kite, perhaps, or a System that baffles nearby enemies' weapons (their AI is forced to target anything but it) or maybe just make the Shrike able to do huge damage to anything it rams (the lack of ramming ships is a hole waiting to be filled in this game).  The Shrike's current System feels pretty WIP, and I don't think anybody's going to miss it.


Anyhow, just some thoughts.  The Shrike definitely feels underwhelming and there's no real reason for a "Light Destroyer" that can't go toe-to-toe with a lot of Frigates.

[From a Faster Time]

I want to like the Shrike, I really do, but every time I try to pilot one, it feels inferior to the other "main" destroyers like the Hammerhead or Sunder. I understand it's an opportunistic light destroyer: it's not meant to go toe-to-toe with sturdier destroyers or cruisers but even when I get in good positioning, it just can't do anything to exploit those opportunities.

Here I though it was about AI not being able to utilize this finesse ship to it's fullest. You can imagine my surprise that a player is complaining that it's too weak in players hands.

One thing to keep in mind here is the Shrike is a light destroyer, and should be inferior in combat power to the Medusa, let alone the Harbinger (which in its current state is the most OP ship in the game, and which at least design-wise should be roughly equivalent to a cruiser in power, which phase ships generally being meant to have a strength of one size higher).

Let me change its burn to 10, actually - that should make it a little more clear where it belongs on the power spectrum.

So basically it can bully smaller ships, or act as support for larger ships (which really includes other destroyers). In terms of it being a player ship... the player I think tends to skate by the sweet spot for its use too quickly. I've got half a mind to increase the buy costs of ships, especially larger ones - this would both extend the early game, which right now feels a bit too quick - and would give ships like the Shrike more room, since they could be meaningfully cheaper to acquire than other destroyers.

Yeah, Shrike would be a perfect upgrade after a starting wolf. Issue is that I went from wolf to phase ships as my upgrade, since both were about equally hard to get early on. And phase ships are superior for what you want to do with a shrike in general.

[xenoargh]

It's very weak, even in player hands, vs. just using a Medusa or even a Wolf.  I'd honestly rather use a Wolf in the Shrike's supposed role; it's more likely to survive and not get surrounded.

[FooF]

The Shrike is symptomatic of the high-tech doctrine, though: high mobility, short-range, good flux but poor weapon efficiency. I get all that, but it really hurts a ship that has middling flux stats, a mobility system that gets it in but not out, and a bunch of small energy mounts that can't generate hard flux. I don't know of a "sweet spot" for a ship that has a lot of downside and little upside in the player's hands.

I agree with Alex: it shouldn't challenge a Medusa but as it is, it is a frustrating ship to pilot. It is a high-risk/low-reward option when there are better options available at/around the same logistical cost. Even a higher burn level doesn't fix the fact that the Shrike simply can't generate appreciable damage in the time frame necessary for an opportunist. As xenoargh said, I don't quite see the point of a Frigate-killer when most Destroyers can do that without much effort as it is.

Even with the proposed changes (which is well "inside the box" in terms of scope), I don't think the Shrike would fair well against a Hammerhead or Sunder in a straight-up fight. The former outrange it in most respects and don't need a lot of positioning to utilize their strengths. It would handedly lose to a Medusa but would crush an Enforcer because of the Enforcer's huge blind spots. In fact, I don't think it would beat any Destroyers in a head-to-head fight. But with good positioning, it would have a few more options to deal efficient damage.

[Megas]

Shrike costs 9 DP to deploy.  Hammerhead is cheaper (8 DP) and better.  Enforcer is a decent brick for the same cost, even if not quite up to par with Hammerhead.  Shrike seems only decent with skills or if player relies on Sabot Pod as a quasi Safety Override loadout (in terms of endurance).  For brawling, it stinks, and AI only knows how to brawl with it, thanks to its system.

Plasma Burn is more of a pursuit system best used to run down and finish off fleeing opponents, such as ships attempting to back off to vent.  Basically a "win-more" system when attacker is already winning.  It could be useful for outmaneuvering enemies, but unskilled Shrike and Odyssey do not have the agility for that.  (They do if player or officer gets the appropriate perks.)  But, with AI charging like an idiot, the outmaneuver application really applies only to the playership.

it is a frustrating ship to pilot. It is a high-risk/low-reward option when there are better options available at/around the same logistical cost.

Totally agree with this.  In addition to AI stupidity, lack of OP really hurts.  Not enough OP to fit Reinforced Bulkheads or campaign mod, even with Loadout Design 3, while other destroyers (with Loadout Design 3) can fit one without too much pain.

I agree with Xenoargh.  I would rather use Medusa or Wolf over Shrike if I want a fast skirmisher.

@ Xenoargh:  Plasma burn does not drop shields like burn drive.  But given Shrike's mediocre stats and sub-optimal weapons, it does not take long for Shrike to flux-cap and be forced to drop shields anyway.

[From a Faster Time]

It's very weak, even in player hands, vs. just using a Medusa or even a Wolf.  I'd honestly rather use a Wolf in the Shrike's supposed role; it's more likely to survive and not get surrounded.

Heeey that's harsh!
https://webm.red/qdOM.webm

Spoiler

[close]

Hammerhead is cheaper (8 DP) and better.  Enforcer is a decent brick for the same cost, even if not quite up to par with Hammerhead. 

But both of those are worse in terms of flanking mobility.

Plasma Burn is more of a pursuit system best used to run down and finish off fleeing opponents, such as ships attempting to back off to vent.

Mmmm, plasma burn is mainly for flanking and chasing. If the enemy formation is very tight together than flanking is hard at best, so you either need big targets or a more spread out battlefield.

Totally agree with this.  In addition to AI stupidity, lack of OP really hurts.  Not enough OP to fit Reinforced Bulkheads or campaign mod, even with Loadout Design 3, while other destroyers (with Loadout Design 3) can fit one without too much pain.

See if you want to call it a terrible ship for the AI to pilot you'd be right, but a player can do plenty with it.

I agree with Xenoargh.  I would rather use Medusa or Wolf over Shrike if I want a fast skirmisher.

Shrike should be more available/easier to get than medusa.

[Grievous69]

I'm just gonna repeat myself from a previous Shrike discussion. It's a god damned light destroyer, its speed should be AT LEAST 120 as Medusa. It actually looks fast and nimble but then the ship which looks like a blue bob has far greater mobility. And as others, I've really given it chances to grow on me since I love high-tech ships. But it always feels like I'm shooting myself in the foot, I could be flying anything else and not feel gimped. And it is the single most suicidal ship in the game, no other ally ship dies as much as Shrike. Might as well give it a built-in hullmod called ''Kamikaze'' which straps a bunch of explosives on it and it'll actually be useful for once.

Edit: Petition to call it Fat Wolf from now on, thank you for your time.

[Megas]

But both of those are worse in terms of flanking mobility.

1) I do not need to flank when I can outgun similar opponents with superior weaponry.  In case of Enforcer, their primary role is tank/draw aggro, not avoid stuff so other squishies die.
2) AI is poor at outflanking enemies, making such a ship viable only as a playership.  AI uses plasma burn to approach quickly, possibly into a mob, for a direct frontal assault, that shafts both Shrike and Odyssey, both of whom have mediocre defenses (and Shrike has mediocre offense as well).  Low-tech ships do this with burn drive, and sometimes pay for it, but those are built tough, with good armor and hull, and have better assault weaponry.

Mmmm, plasma burn is mainly for flanking and chasing.

Player can use it to flank (but needs perks for sufficient speed and agility), but the AI does not.

Shrike should be more available/easier to get than medusa.

It is easier to get than Medusa, but Shrike itself is not easy to get.  Wolf is easier to get than Shrike, and I rather use Wolf over it.  Wolf can do what Shrike can do for less cost.

Edit: Petition to call it Fat Wolf from now on, thank you for your time.

Call it "Space Pig".  It is one possible ship name, at least from 0.8.x days.

[From a Faster Time]

Edit: Petition to call it Fat Wolf from now on, thank you for your time.

I will now name all my Shrikes "Fat Wolf", sounds a lot like "Solid Snake" or "Deep Throat".

1) I do not need to flank when I can outgun similar opponents with superior weaponry.

Works right up to the point where you can't out gun a bigger fish than yourself.

In case of Enforcer, their primary role is tank/draw aggro, not avoid stuff so other squishies die.

Exactly, one is a tank, the other is dps, and one is a flanker.

2) AI is poor at outflanking enemies, making such a ship viable only as a playership.  AI uses plasma burn to approach quickly, possibly into a mob, for a direct frontal assault, that shafts both Shrike and Odyssey.  Low-tech ships do this with burn drive, and sometimes pay for it, but those are built tough, with good armor and hull, and have better assault weaponry.

Should be obvious I agree on all of that form my previous statements.

Player can use it to flank (but needs perks for sufficient speed and agility).

Not sure what you mean since a no skill shrike can flank a no skilled sunder or hammerhead.

It is easier to get than Medusa, but Shrike itself is not easy to get.  Wolf is easier to get than Shrike, and I rather use Wolf over it.  Wolf can do what Shrike can do for less cost.

Yeah, but the Shrike has more firepower and durability than wolf. Medusa is superior to all of them, but should be hardest to get. Problem how do you fit shrike in early where it matters but after wolf.