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Author Topic: Making the Conquest great  (Read 20325 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2019, 11:04:21 AM »

So, even though the HB is a flux hog, the Conquest can handle it and it adds significant capabilities.

AI can use HBs, but for player constantly switching HBs on/off to manage flux would be quite a horrible attention sinkhole. It is much easier to keep facing right for broadsides.

I also use IR pulse IPDAI (and Pulse Lasers in med slots), so I don't need 2 dual-flaks per side (though 1 is preferable) and definitely do not have flux to spare for HBs. Such config already slowly builds up flux from fully firing 1 side, more flux consumption just makes it too fiddly.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 11:09:13 AM by TaLaR »
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2019, 11:06:13 AM »

The Heavy Blaster does not have high flux usage though its range is not long.
You really need to add "relative to the damage it does" for it to be a sane statement. Otherwise pic related.
I agree that it is inefficient, but the Conquest has a lot of flux to spare.
I disagree, considering the range of Heavy blaster will mean you are in range where you have to use shields. And the conquest has one of the worst, if not The worst shields in the game. So it's "flux advantage" is instantly reduced when close enough to take damage on it shields.
There in lies the problem
1) Enemy in front of Conquest. This mainly happens when the AI is piloting, but can happen with agile ships vs a player. In this case 2 HB is 1440 fps - easily enough to be covered by the Conquest. In this situation the other guns aren't firing (enemy in front), so... well the Heavy Blaster is the only choice. It gives much more DPS than any other option.
The conquest is really weak when not using the broadsides, assuming the enemy has enough units to force themselves into the area where conquest can't just rotate towards them I really have to ask, where is your own fleet. Rather than plan on your conquest being stranded vs a ton of fast ships, it would make sense to play to the ships strengths and utilize the broadsides.
2) Enemy in Broadside and within 600*1.6 range. In this case the Conquest either is mauling something to death OR wants the thing to go away as fast as possible. In either case, what is most needed is DPS. I will admit that 2x Large Ballistics + 2 offensive mediums + 1 HB overfluxes the Conquest (by a small amount). However, if you put flak in the medium ballistics (which a lot of people do) then the flux is not overtaxed: the Conquest can handle 2x Large Ballistics + 1 HB even without skills.
So, even though the HB is a flux hog, the Conquest can handle it and it adds significant capabilities.
I agree on you here, if you are using the mediums for flak, then you automatically get more flux to play with and that can be used on it's medium energy. The issue I have with this is again, not utilizing the conquest in it's strongest position.
But then again, as I understand you are building the conquest for AI use, and I mainly argue about player controlled conquest, so the methods that apply to either are different due to execution.

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Megas

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2019, 12:06:53 PM »

I also use IR pulse IPDAI (and Pulse Lasers in med slots), so I don't need 2 dual-flaks per side (though 1 is preferable) and definitely do not have flux to spare for HBs. Such config already slowly builds up flux from fully firing 1 side, more flux consumption just makes it too fiddly.
I sometimes use IR Pulse Lasers, usually because I do not have burst PD blueprint (and therefore not enough to spare).  Their flux use is not insignificant.  I still use flak even with small PD (of any sort), if my heavy ballistic firepower is sufficient.  (Mark IX and HAG are enough against pirates and pathers, two Mjolnirs against anything bigger that is not SIM Paragon, which AI almost never uses in 0.9a.)

Lousy shields means Conquest needs to have some flux to spare for shields.

Most small enemies that try to hover in front of the Conquest eat a double load of Locusts and die (or not if I do not have Locusts).  Bigger enemies will see broadsides soon enough.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2019, 04:27:42 PM »

The conquest's ship system means it can easily turn to line up a broadside on any enemy that is significant enough to warrant focused fire.
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Thaago

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2019, 07:44:03 PM »

From a Faster Time is right, I am talking mainly about Conquest for AI use - getting the AI to not point its nose at an enemy is a problem! :P
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TaLaR

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2019, 09:51:10 PM »

Lousy shields means Conquest needs to have some flux to spare for shields.

Yes and no. No matter what you do (hard shields, high CR, defensive systems) Conquest shields are bad. You want to minimize their usage as much as possible (accelerated shields, mini-vent a lot and raise shields just in time for significant projectiles/TLs).
It is easier to pressure most enemies into submission rather than tanking their shots. So having somewhat overclocked weapon flux usage is fine.
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Thaago

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2019, 10:30:39 PM »

Yeah... Hardened Shields is basically an OP tax unless you reeaaallly feel like you can avoid enemy fire. With HS its decently tough. Not great, but a big flux pool and ~1 efficiency.
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Philder

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2019, 02:15:40 AM »

Capital ships have flux limitations just like every other ship, sometimes even worse than other ships, because otherwise they would be too powerful. They have a lot more and bigger weapons that they can fire at greater ranges on a single target, and they are inordinately tankier than smaller ships so they can continue to fire long after smaller ships have been destroyed.

Anyway, just trust in Alex (the dev) that it's more-or-less balanced. Accept that that's the way ships are and work around the problem instead of getting frustrated by it. There are ways to make it work.

The flux cost of HBs is a balance issue. Except for flux and range, it has very good stats. Stats easily on par with and even superior to some large weapons.

Anyway, there is a lot of value to higher dps. It allows you to do more damage before your target's defensive measures can counteract you (shields, turning armor, fleeing, increase your flux, etc).

Using them on the Conquest, I typically put them into the same weapon group as non-missile and non-PD weapons, and my keys 3, 4 and 5 are all binded to Toggle Autofire instead of Select Weapon Group. That way I can turn off weapons without turning off PD, which is hella more useful than the button to turn of ALL weapons. To compensate for the higher flux drain, I do, in fact, active vent after a few shots, and continue to vent as frequently as possible. Short vents are safe enough, and combined with Resistant Flux Conduits, it essentially overdrives my flux dissipation capabilities with little risk (in most cases).

Regarding Ion Beams:
In my opinion Ion Beams are too expensive on a direct-fire ship. Flux is too important for causing damage to essentially sacrifice 200 flux for just EMP. 50 beam damage is almost nothing. Compare that to LR PD Laser which is somewhat comparable, and ask yourself if that absurd increase in flux cost is worth it. If you want more EMP, either get some Ion Cannons in the smalls or a Converted Hangar with a Xyphos wing. The range of Ion Cannon isn't too big an issue, espcially considering the drastically reduced flux cost and change to hardflux. And that heavy OP cost for a Converted Hangar is worth it. You essentially get the OP equivalent of 2x Ion Beams, 2x Burst PD, the flux dissipation those weapons use as well as whatever damage they soak, and the unknown cost of having those four weapons able to fire through friendly ships with essentially no directional blindspots (relative to the parent ship).

Other fit choices I like:
-Normal Flak Cannons for the extra range, which adds to the dps output at Heavy Blaster range, and the higher damage, making it more efficient against smaller armor but especially against hull.
-Hurricane MIRVs in the large slots. Most options available to and commonly used on Conquests aren't so great against high armor targets, and I don't need more ammo so I don't need to spend OP on another hullmod. This also diverts the normally expensive armor damage into flux-free damage, and reduces my need for anti-armor ballistics allowing me to maximize my anti-shield and anti-hull.
-Storm Needler combined with Heavy Blasters. They are both such amazingly dps dense weapons in a single slot, and the shorter range of Storm compared to other large weapons is less impactful when my Conquest's battle doctrine is getting in close anyway. The dps of Storm Needler against shields is so absurd that you open up a lot of options to yourself, too. You could grab the silly Devastator Cannon for some cross utility and make those small energy slots unnecessary (ie: free up some OP), or you could slap another Flak or Dual Flak on there, or you could double-down on the DPS with a Mjolnir or MarkIX, or or or...
-Sniper build with Gauss and Maulers, Phase Lance and small beams with Advanced Optics for some close-range DPS assist, and 4x Salamander MRM to make it easier to nail fast and/or long range targets. Sniper build also reduces the need for defensive hullmods, opening up additional options for you. Since this build also requires less focus, I like getting an Operations Center so I can improve my control over my fleet, which ends up increasing both the offensive and defensive potential of my fleet.
-LR PD Lasers are really nice on capital ships for providing super long range PD support (that doesn't friendly fire) to your fleet. (for PD purposes, LRPDL is superior to Tac Lasers).
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Euphytose

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2019, 02:51:11 AM »

If a thread about the Conquest's balance can get this many replies each time, it's not balanced, simple as that. It's an inferior ship that can be "worked around" with very specific builds. Its ship system only nullifies one of its flaws, it doesn't add to an already good ship.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2019, 06:09:33 AM »

If a thread about the Conquest's balance can get this many replies each time, it's not balanced, simple as that.
Interesting logic.
It's an inferior ship that can be "worked around" with very specific builds. Its ship system only nullifies one of its flaws, it doesn't add to an already good ship.
Somewhat agree there, for a Onslaught for instance the Maneuvering jets would be a huge boon in terms of getting rid of it's biggest weakness/problem which is it's defined weakness for balance sake. Since it wants to keep its front pointed at the enemy at all time.
On the Conquest the Maneuvering jets are there to help it not be terrible.
The other big issue is the AI vs player control of the ship itself, much like the Odyssey I believe the Conquest is too much finesse for an AI to handle(at least the current implementation of the AI) and it rarely fully utilizes it's strengths while mitigating it's weaknesses.
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Megas

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2019, 06:57:47 AM »

If a thread about the Conquest's balance can get this many replies each time, it's not balanced, simple as that. It's an inferior ship that can be "worked around" with very specific builds. Its ship system only nullifies one of its flaws, it doesn't add to an already good ship.
It is good enough to match Onslaught and maybe others.  Conquest can work with a variety of loadouts, unlike other ships that require a specific loadout to work (at its best).  The only must-have is either Hardened Shields or near max capacitors (to substitute for missing Hardened Shields).

Yeah... Hardened Shields is basically an OP tax unless you reeaaallly feel like you can avoid enemy fire. With HS its decently tough. Not great, but a big flux pool and ~1 efficiency.
Ditto for Odyssey (thanks shield nerf), and Odyssey is more OP starved than Conquest.  Odyssey cannot spare OP for Reinforced Bulkheads (or campaign mods), and requires an officer or you to pilot it for the guaranteed ship recovery perk.

And if the ship (Conquest or Odyssey) does not have Hardened Shields, then max capacitors is a must, and that effectively slows down venting, and AI Conquest without Hardened Shields is vulnerable to flux spikes in the way most ships are against AM Blaster.

@ Philder:  The point of Ion Beam is unblockable EMP.  It can work if the other weapons are flux efficient enough.  In that case, the biggest problem is not enough OP for Expanded Missile Racks, and that hullmod is very nice to make Locusts last for nearly the whole fight, even against big endgame fleets.  (Without missile racks, Locusts run dry about halfway through a fight.)  For my pirate hunter loadout, it is a choice between Ion Beam or more Locusts, and I think I like more Locusts, because Locusts is practically unblockable against enemy frigates due to overwhelming damage, even if fragmentation.

I prefer Dual Flak over Single Flak for defense.  Range is secondary concern when flak is involved.  I just want a fast constant stream of shots that incoming shots cannot penetrate.

Hurricanes really need both ECCM hullmod and Missile Specialization to work properly.  Without both, they do not converge enough, and are merely glorified Annihilators for the purpose of throwing up a chaff screen.  They only get used if I have nothing better, and I do not spend OP for ECCM because Conquest has a fairly tight OP budget.

I would not use Heavy Blaster and Storm Needlers.  Storm Needlers alone generate almost too much flux.  They pair nicely with Heavy Mortars, though.

The other big issue is the AI vs player control of the ship itself, much like the Odyssey I believe the Conquest is too much finesse for an AI to handle(at least the current implementation of the AI) and it rarely fully utilizes it's strengths while mitigating it's weaknesses.
Conquest needs no where near as much finesse to duel other capitals or simply fight in endgame battles.  With its system, it tries to standoff and fight, rather than charge into danger like Onslaught and Odyssey.  With Hardened Shields and a good loadout, Conquest will perform about as well as Onslaught.  I have thrown Conquest, even with (D) mod hulls, into fights, and it survives nearly all of them.  I throw Odyssey into the fight, and it charges into a melee like Onslaught, then dies.  Simply put, I trust AI to pilot Conquest, and I freely swap my character and an officer and back.  I do not trust AI to pilot Odyssey, and if I do not pilot Odyssey myself, it does not get used.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 07:04:39 AM by Megas »
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Thaago

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2019, 10:37:22 AM »

If a thread about the Conquest's balance can get this many replies each time, it's not balanced, simple as that. It's an inferior ship that can be "worked around" with very specific builds. Its ship system only nullifies one of its flaws, it doesn't add to an already good ship.

No, its just that there actually are vastly different design philosophies that all lead to pretty good outcomes. Onslaughts and Paragons are objectively tougher ships, but they can really only do one thing.

Because of its mounts, flux, and ship system, it legitimately can be a long range sniper... or a mid range wedge... or an anti-fighter zone machine (tac grid + locusts)... or even a close range brawler (single sided with extra OP to toughness, storm needlers + others and HE missiles) and probably a bunch of other roles as well.

The one consensus seems to be that Hardened Shields are required.
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Retry

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2019, 11:56:27 AM »

Hardened Shields aren't required for a sniper build, since the point of those is that you're supposed to be out of the way of most fire in the first place.  In which case, shield should be used to absorb high-threat shots like Hellbores, Reapers, and the occasional Plasma shell.  For player control anyways.  If you're insisting on engaging other Caps at a more regular range, or Paragons, you'll probably want Hardened Shields.
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Plantissue

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2019, 01:32:05 PM »


Somewhat agree there, for a Onslaught for instance the Maneuvering jets would be a huge boon in terms of getting rid of it's biggest weakness/problem which is it's defined weakness for balance sake. Since it wants to keep its front pointed at the enemy at all time.
Actually not all the time depending on load out. It kind of wants to alternate from front and at an angle from the side, so it can shoot with both its thermal pulse cannons, and when it is recharging, turn at an angle to shoot from two large mounts. At least for a non-default loadout anyways.

No, its just that there actually are vastly different design philosophies that all lead to pretty good outcomes. Onslaughts and Paragons are objectively tougher ships, but they can really only do one thing.

Because of its mounts, flux, and ship system, it legitimately can be a long range sniper... or a mid range wedge... or an anti-fighter zone machine (tac grid + locusts)... or even a close range brawler (single sided with extra OP to toughness, storm needlers + others and HE missiles) and probably a bunch of other roles as well.
Unfortunately, because it is fragile compared to other capital ships, (why would you even want to "wedge"? There's no morale system in starsector), it's actually pretty bad at all of those roles except being a long range sniper kiter. A role it is only better than other capitals only because of manoeuvering jets allows it to move away from danger better. In fact I'm hard pressed to think of any reason why the Conquest can be considered for those roles in particular; it might be better than Onslaught or Paragon, but only because of Manoeuvring Jets to close the distance, not becuase of anything else.
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From a Faster Time

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Re: Making the Conquest great
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2019, 01:48:57 PM »

No, its just that there actually are vastly different design philosophies that all lead to pretty good outcomes. Onslaughts and Paragons are objectively tougher ships, but they can really only do one thing.
Because of its mounts, flux, and ship system, it legitimately can be a long range sniper... or a mid range wedge... or an anti-fighter zone machine (tac grid + locusts)... or even a close range brawler (single sided with extra OP to toughness, storm needlers + others and HE missiles) and probably a bunch of other roles as well.
Correct, Conquest has more options while being the master of none. I would say it's only a master at long range sniper and being able to run away/maintain distance. A kiting ship.
The one consensus seems to be that Hardened Shields are required.
If you plan to get close enough to get damaged.
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