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Author Topic: Fav cap ship flagship?  (Read 22599 times)

Megas

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2018, 05:48:11 PM »

For an all-HE ship, get Falcon (P) and shove Annihilators on every orifice that can take it.  Nice early-to-midgame ship when teamed up with others that can break shields.
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Thaago

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2018, 06:54:22 PM »

For Eagles I love 3 Heavy Autocannons, 2 Phase Beams, then beams according to what tech you have unlocked (4 tacs + IPDAI up front makes a nice anti missile/fighter kill zone). Medium energy are actually good armor crackers if you are willing to get close, while medium ballistics have good anti-shield. A single heavy blaster can work pretty well also, but its very flux hungry so I prefer phase beams.Perhaps slightly too expensive at 22, but not by much: Eagles are surprisingly hard to kill because of maneuvering jets.

I like Apogee very much with a Plasma Cannon, think its ok support with a HIL, and think its pretty trash with an Autopulse (autopulse works for other ships, but not for apogee). Locust is the perfect missile for it (and I'd say one without is seriously weak to fighters). Its shield is wonderful (and maaaaybe needs to be tweaked to 0.7 but I didn't say that). However, I think it fits at 18 DP because it lacks a mobility system: if they get isolated and focused by destroyers or a heavy cruiser they are in trouble.
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Goumindong

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2018, 07:37:53 PM »

Edit: ...Oh, right, you were one of the people arguing in favor of an all-HE weapon loadout.  Nevermind, then, we're clearly not going to see eye to eye about how to actually put together an effective fleet, and I should just cut out the discussion and move on.

Edit2: For anyone else who comes by and wants an effective Eagle loadout, I suggest 30 vents, 3 capacitors, ITU, stabilized shields, weapon group 1 2x HVD 1x mauler, group 2 2x Harpoon MRM (Single), Group 3 1x Ion Beam, Group 4 2x Graviton Beam, Group 5, 4x Burst PD, and leave the forwardmost small energy slot empty.

That is a fine support eagle... it’s just... not as good as an Apogee. And it’s 4 DP more expensive with an extra fuel/LY... and less cargo and...
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TaLaR

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2018, 08:21:53 PM »

Ehm... Eagle is both faster(~75 average vs 60 speed) and outranges (800/1000 vs 700 hard flux range pre ITU) Apogee, their duel is already decided as Eagle victory before it starts.

As for preferred AI Eagle variant: 2 Heavy AC (or 1 Heavy AC + 1 Heavy Needler, but definitely not 2 Needlers), 1 Heavy Mortar or Heavy Mauler, 2 Gravitons, 1 Heavy Blaster ( AI can finally use it in 0.9), 3 LRPD in front, 2 PD lasers back, ITU, Hardened Shields, max vents. Minor variance possible due to loadout design 3.
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Goumindong

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2018, 10:52:47 PM »

It’s not a duel. It’s a fleet fight.
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Draba

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2018, 01:25:41 AM »

Huh.  18 feels about right to me - it's a useful ship, and a little bit cheaper to field than an average cruiser (20 for a Heron/Mora/Gryphon & 22 for Eagle)... but in the early game, you can get rather more usable firepower on a cheaper-to-field destroyer
Ehm... Eagle is both faster(~75 average vs 60 speed) and outranges (800/1000 vs 700 hard flux range pre ITU) Apogee, their duel is already decided as Eagle victory before it starts.
Yep, Apogee is a pretty bad choice for early combat. You'll have a miserable time with a slowish main ship that has ~700 effective range.
Could get HIL/Tachyon but Sunder with HEF is cheaper and better for that. Still not a waste with the awesome surveying/cargo/fuel combo, but other cruisers have bigger impact.
Eagle is all around better for player control, don't like piloting dominator but it's also way better at killing things.

Edit2: For anyone else who comes by and wants an effective Eagle loadout, I suggest 30 vents, 3 capacitors, ITU, stabilized shields, weapon group 1 2x HVD 1x mauler, group 2 2x Harpoon MRM (Single), Group 3 1x Ion Beam, Group 4 2x Graviton Beam, Group 5, 4x Burst PD, and leave the forwardmost small energy slot empty.
As for preferred AI Eagle variant: 2 Heavy AC (or 1 Heavy AC + 1 Heavy Needler, but definitely not 2 Needlers), 1 Heavy Mortar or Heavy Mauler, 2 Gravitons, 1 Heavy Blaster ( AI can finally use it in 0.9), 3 LRPD in front, 2 PD lasers back, ITU, Hardened Shields, max vents. Minor variance possible due to loadout design 3.
3 heavy machine gun + 3 phase lance unstable injector Eagle is the one true variant :)
Overall yep, medium ballistics are all-around awesome and heavy autocannons/hypervelocity still stand out, usually building around those.

and late game I'd rather field ships with either more firepower (i.e. basically any other cruiser) or more staying power (i.e. capital ships).
This is the thing where Apogee shines, it has MUCH better overall shield durability than Onslaught/Odyssey/Conquest, slightly better than Astral.
Cost is less than half of those so you get ridiculous amounts of tankiness, armor is on the weaker side but it doesn't matter with those shields.

Yep, firepower is on the low side. Not that bad as IR pulse is a great filler closer up (2x152 hard flux DPS at 1:1).
Plasma looks much better on paper but to me it seems like Apogee fleet somehow kills things easier with autopulse. Probably the all steady officer lineup being too shy/getting in each other's way, lots of charges built up.
Bad against armor but back to the previous point, if shooting drags out apogee has way higher flux dissipation than usage. It'll tank soft flux forever and potentially regen lots of hard.
Active system is the biggest downside, friggin flares aren't good to begin with and they are on a ship that can just tank some sabots with shields. Can't have everything :)

End result is that IMO it's the ultimate ship to give to the AI, can't get itself killed and it only has to point in the general direction of the enemy and fire all weapons for optimal behavior.
For personal cruiser would take Aurora/Eagle every time, plasma Apogee after that.


Edit:
The AI being a bit better with MIRV, and MIRV being less finnicky overall would help it a lot.
L missile slot is kinda wasted on locusts when you need armor damage, also pushes towards using plasma cannon.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 02:10:33 AM by Draba »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2018, 07:12:35 AM »

Huh.  18 feels about right to me - it's a useful ship, and a little bit cheaper to field than an average cruiser (20 for a Heron/Mora/Gryphon & 22 for Eagle)... but in the early game, you can get rather more usable firepower on a cheaper-to-field destroyer
Ehm... Eagle is both faster(~75 average vs 60 speed) and outranges (800/1000 vs 700 hard flux range pre ITU) Apogee, their duel is already decided as Eagle victory before it starts.
Yep, Apogee is a pretty bad choice for early combat. You'll have a miserable time with a slowish main ship that has ~700 effective range.
Could get HIL/Tachyon but Sunder with HEF is cheaper and better for that. Still not a waste with the awesome surveying/cargo/fuel combo, but other cruisers have bigger impact.
Eagle is all around better for player control, don't like piloting dominator but it's also way better at killing things.

Actually, I've had decent luck early game with an SO, unstable injector Plasma Cannon + 2 Heavy Blaster Apogee.  With skills it can hit almost 100 base speed, plus the 50 from the 0-flux bonus makes it able to hunt down quite a bit.  That plus its shields means it can pretty much 1 vs 1 any non-SO cruiser, and most of the destroyers.  Its no good for long engagements, but you shouldn't be having long engagements early game.

Edit2: For anyone else who comes by and wants an effective Eagle loadout, I suggest 30 vents, 3 capacitors, ITU, stabilized shields, weapon group 1 2x HVD 1x mauler, group 2 2x Harpoon MRM (Single), Group 3 1x Ion Beam, Group 4 2x Graviton Beam, Group 5, 4x Burst PD, and leave the forwardmost small energy slot empty.
As for preferred AI Eagle variant: 2 Heavy AC (or 1 Heavy AC + 1 Heavy Needler, but definitely not 2 Needlers), 1 Heavy Mortar or Heavy Mauler, 2 Gravitons, 1 Heavy Blaster ( AI can finally use it in 0.9), 3 LRPD in front, 2 PD lasers back, ITU, Hardened Shields, max vents. Minor variance possible due to loadout design 3.
3 heavy machine gun + 3 phase lance unstable injector Eagle is the one true variant :)
Overall yep, medium ballistics are all-around awesome and heavy autocannons/hypervelocity still stand out, usually building around those.

I've started playing around with creating missions (testing out things like 3 Conquest + Falcon vs 3 Odyssey) and letting the AI play them (not unlike the fleet tourneys).  I may try mocking up an Eagle vs Apogee fleet fight with some of these builds and see how they do.  

P.S. By the way, the Conquests + Falcon win fairly reliably (although sometimes with losses of 1-2 ships).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 07:20:35 AM by Hiruma Kai »
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fededevi

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2018, 07:21:09 AM »

Onslaught with 5 HVDs and a big HE weapon: use the burn drive to move in for the killing blow and to escape. It is almost impossible to die and you can actually snipe frigates and fighters with HVDs.

cruisers: Eagle with HVDs

destroyers: Sunder with 3 phase lances (I always keep one with unstable injector in the fleet as  a backup ship for small fights)

HVD is decent against everything, shields, armor, frigates, fighters...
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 07:27:55 AM by fededevi »
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Flying Birdy

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2018, 07:47:19 AM »

Huh.  18 feels about right to me - it's a useful ship, and a little bit cheaper to field than an average cruiser (20 for a Heron/Mora/Gryphon & 22 for Eagle)... but in the early game, you can get rather more usable firepower on a cheaper-to-field destroyer
Ehm... Eagle is both faster(~75 average vs 60 speed) and outranges (800/1000 vs 700 hard flux range pre ITU) Apogee, their duel is already decided as Eagle victory before it starts.
Yep, Apogee is a pretty bad choice for early combat. You'll have a miserable time with a slowish main ship that has ~700 effective range.
Could get HIL/Tachyon but Sunder with HEF is cheaper and better for that. Still not a waste with the awesome surveying/cargo/fuel combo, but other cruisers have bigger impact.
Eagle is all around better for player control, don't like piloting dominator but it's also way better at killing things.

Actually, I've had decent luck early game with an SO, unstable injector Plasma Cannon + 2 Heavy Blaster Apogee.  With skills it can hit almost 100 base speed, plus the 50 from the 0-flux bonus makes it able to hunt down quite a bit.  That plus its shields means it can pretty much 1 vs 1 any non-SO cruiser, and most of the destroyers.  Its no good for long engagements, but you shouldn't be having long engagements early game.


You are not proving anyone wrong with that argument. A player controlled SO ship can basically kill anything and everything if piloted correctly. Being use-able does not make it strong relative to other ships.

Your setup uses up 45 for the SO, 15 for the injectors, 30 for the plasma cannon, and 24 for the heavy blasters. Assuming you are fitting your ship with something for the remaining small mounts and missile mounts, you basically have zero room for any other hull mods. In effect, you turned your apogee into aurora-lite.

And not a particularly good aurora at that; the heavy blasters aren't even front facing so you can't even fire them at the same time as your plasma cannon. To be honest, I'm not even sure why you would even want to fire those heavy blasters, You have to turn just to line up an angle for these ultra flux ineffecient weapons, which also means not allowing your plasma cannons to fire. And you pretty much rely exclusively on your plasma cannon to take down ships, which does not work in large fleet engagements against fleets from most enemies. 

Why not just fly an Aurora? If you don't have an aurora, why not fly a SO sunder that can accomplish the same? Or even better, fly a non-SO tach lance sunder? Or even better, fly an Eagle? You can do the same SO build on the Eagle and it will have similar effective speeds due to the maneuvering thrusters. And the Eagle actually have better weapons for brawling; medium mounts with HMG kill shields really quickly.

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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2018, 07:55:19 AM »

You are not proving anyone wrong with that argument. A player controlled SO ship can basically kill anything and everything if piloted correctly. Being use-able does not make it strong relative to other ships.

Your setup uses up 45 for the SO, 15 for the injectors, 30 for the plasma cannon, and 24 for the heavy blasters. Assuming you are fitting your ship with something for the remaining small mounts and missile mounts, you basically have zero room for any other hull mods. In effect, you turned your apogee into aurora-lite.

I don't fit anything in the other mounts.  Its just pure vents and a few caps depending on skills.  Exactly, its supposed to be an Aurora-lite.  Which I can start with.  Do you consider an Aurora an early game ship?  Bascially with the Apogee start, you can hit a few markets, find a plasma cannon and maybe some pulse lasers if you can't find heavy blasters, and jump straight into some heavy duty bounty hunting with a pristine cruiser class ship on your side.  Generally I can find a plasma cannon pretty quick, and use pulse lasers until I find the heavy blasters.  I agree, Aurora does it better.

And not a particularly good aurora at that; the heavy blasters aren't even front facing so you can't even fire them at the same time as your plasma cannon. To be honest, I'm not even sure why you would even want to fire those heavy blasters, You have to turn just to line up an angle for these ultra flux ineffecient weapons, which also means not allowing your plasma cannons to fire. And you pretty much rely exclusively on your plasma cannon to take down ships, which does not work in large fleet engagements against fleets from most enemies.

Your range is so short, you actually just wind up ramming enemy ships.  At that range, against a destroyer, you'll get the plasma cannon plus 1 heavy blaster.  Against cruiser size or bigger ships, you get the plasma cannon and both heavy blasters hitting.  Now they admittedly don't hit the same spot, but all 3 weapons are good at punching through armor, so its not a big deal.  SO Aurora with 36 vents has almost enough vent capacity to fire all 3 non-stop.  I figure you might as well actually use your soft flux capacity.  They also swat fighters surprisingly well at point blank range.

Why not just fly an Aurora? If you don't have an aurora, why not fly a SO sunder that can accomplish the same? Or even better, fly a non-SO tach lance sunder? Or even better, fly an Eagle? You can do the same SO build on the Eagle and it will have similar effective speeds due to the maneuvering thrusters. And the Eagle actually have better weapons for brawling; medium mounts with HMG kill shields really quickly.

Because I can't start with an Aurora or sunder?  And the sunder doesn't have the shield pool the Apogee does.  Once I get an Aurora, I fly the Aurora.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 08:01:42 AM by Hiruma Kai »
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Flying Birdy

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2018, 08:28:08 AM »

I still don't see how you can hit a destroyer with plasma cannon + 1 heavy blaster, considering the largest of destroyer hulls will only match your ship width. I actually tested this out and it was only just barely do-able when enemy ships had shields on, meaning the heavy blasters (super flux expensive and OP expensive weapons) were still useless 90% of the time when the destroyer turns off shields. Admittedly, this build worked a bit better against super wide dominators - blasters weren't useless. But they were still the most inefficient weapons for punching shields - you are paying 40% extra flux for shield damage; you'd get the same flux mileage if you used an assault chaingun on shields. I don't see anyone using assault chain guns for punching shields. And I couldn't even close the gap on my Apogee against any dominators fitted with sabots and Mark X autocannons; probably because I could not out flux your enemy with flux inefficient weapons.

The Eagle still remains objectively better as a combat vessel by your argument. An Eagle with SO + injectors can also match speeds with smaller ships is only a bit slower when you factor in maneuver thrusters. The Eagle is also about on par in terms of flux, when you account for the fact that it has 15 extra OP. The Eagle also can use HMG for its three front mounts; so instead of paying 1.44 flux/shielddmg, you are paying 0.2 flux/shielddmg. The Eagle also does not lack for armor penetration options with the 3 medium energy mounts and also the 3 ballistics mounts. It just does everything better.
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Goumindong

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2018, 11:49:56 AM »

If  you don't have an aurora, why not fly a SO sunder that can accomplish the same? Or even better, fly a non-SO tach lance sunder?

Aurora: 20,000 effective shields

Sunder: 6,250 effecting shields

Might be one reason.

Edit: soft flux cost of shield damage is pointless if you’re under significantly under your dissipation cap.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 11:55:28 AM by Goumindong »
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2018, 12:22:26 PM »

I still don't see how you can hit a destroyer with plasma cannon + 1 heavy blaster, considering the largest of destroyer hulls will only match your ship width. I actually tested this out and it was only just barely do-able when enemy ships had shields on, meaning the heavy blasters (super flux expensive and OP expensive weapons) were still useless 90% of the time when the destroyer turns off shields. Admittedly, this build worked a bit better against super wide dominators - blasters weren't useless. But they were still the most inefficient weapons for punching shields - you are paying 40% extra flux for shield damage; you'd get the same flux mileage if you used an assault chaingun on shields. I don't see anyone using assault chain guns for punching shields. And I couldn't even close the gap on my Apogee against any dominators fitted with sabots and Mark X autocannons; probably because I could not out flux your enemy with flux inefficient weapons.

The Eagle still remains objectively better as a combat vessel by your argument. An Eagle with SO + injectors can also match speeds with smaller ships is only a bit slower when you factor in maneuver thrusters. The Eagle is also about on par in terms of flux, when you account for the fact that it has 15 extra OP. The Eagle also can use HMG for its three front mounts; so instead of paying 1.44 flux/shielddmg, you are paying 0.2 flux/shielddmg. The Eagle also does not lack for armor penetration options with the 3 medium energy mounts and also the 3 ballistics mounts. It just does everything better.

The SO Eagle with Heavy Machine guns is better.  I admit that raw kinetic damage can't be beat with 1920 hard flux per second on shields just from 3 weapons, compared to 1357 from say a plasma cannon + 2x IR + Pulse laser, or 1250 from a heavy blaster and plasma cannon.  Since it can use Heavy Blaster(s) for its armor cracking, its just as effective in that role as the Apogee can be.

However, I mostly wanted to argue that an Apogee is not a bad early game combat ship.  As I said, I've had decent luck with an SO Apogee early game. Given I tend to play Iron man, I've done a number of re-starts in my time.

For the Apogee and considering options on it, you have to take into account the fact that 36 Vents +700 base flux + SO means you 2120 flux to play with (with just the +10% OP skill, it gets better if you have some shield skills or flux skills).  This is a weird regime where you've got more flux capacity than can sometimes be effectively used.

Heavy Blasters are not what I'd consider OP expensive given what they do.  They're a large weapon effectively in a medium slot.  They're definitely flux intensive, but an SO ship changes the calculus a lot.

Consider the following 3 weapons, and their damage per second per OP, assuming flux neutral usage on an SO ship.

A pulse laser is 10 OP, plus 333 flux for 303 damage.  With SO, thats 10 OP + 16.65 OP of vents for 303 damage per second, or ~11.37 damage per second per OP at flux neutral cost.

A plasma cannon is 30 OP, plus 825 flux for 750 damage.  Again with SO, thats 30 OP + 41.25 OP of vents for 10.52 damage per second per OP at flux neutral cost.

A heavy blaster is 12 OP, plus 720 flux for 500 damage.  With SO, thats 12 OP + 36 OP of vents for 10.41 damage per second per OP at flux neutral cost.

There's about a ~1% difference in terms of total opportunity cost between a plasma cannon and a heavy blaster on an SO ship assuming flux dissipation is matched exactly against shields+weapons.  If flux dissipation is greater than shields+weapons, then more damage is straight up better.

Given the OP opportunity costs a heavy blaster makes about as much sense on an SO ship as plasma cannon, except I can put 2 more heavy blasters on an Aurora, I can't put 1 or 2 more plasma cannons.  Pulse lasers are about 9% more efficient against shields, but significantly worse against armor, and run into situations where I can't bring one side to bear, so again more dissipation than I can use.  There's an argument to be made that one should replace the plasma cannon on the front with a heavy blaster and add hardened shields in my build, which I've also played around with.

In my runs, if I'm dealing with a ship with sabots I'll either try to bait them and back off, with active flares spammed already out, and back off if necessary.  Alternatively, I'll armor tank them and rely on my weapons in the rear to do damage if the Plasma cannon gets taken out by ion damage.  Against a completely kinetic/fragmentation dominator, I simply armor tank in 6 second chunks (with hold fire on) to let my hard flux drop to 0 while continuing to move around until I'm in the rear arc.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 12:25:04 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Goumindong

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Re: Fav cap ship flagship?
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2018, 01:03:56 PM »

Something else you can do is dump with Autopulse, then turn to the side and use the HB while the Autopulse recharges. This effectively lets you use both at the same time.
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