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[goduranus]

To top that off the Odyssey also carries bombers...

[From a Faster Time]

To top that off the Odyssey also carries bombers...

To be honest, I am afraid that Alex will go the way of all devs and just nerf the next fun thing, rather than buff the thing that is weak. In this case rather than Conquest being brought up to speed, the Odyssey will take a hit.

[Draba]

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Pointed out that your picture is missing the most important thing, bulk of Conquest's mobility comes from the jets.
Manoeuvring/plasma jets also add lateral velocity and turning speed, IMO they are much better for general use than plasma burn/burn drive(plasma burn is better at getting in range of faster things/dodging).
As mentioned before Odyssey is 60 DP so it should be better. 3 Conquests against 2 Odysseys should be the basis for comparisons(even that's bad, in fleet battles your aren't 1v1ing other capitals).

As for "It also has 20000/1200 flux capacity and dissipation, the best after Paragon." which is offset by the terrible shields. Yes, by all rights, if you stay out of range and never use shields, the Conquest has superior flux capacity and venting, but the instant shields come into play, you either pay the OP cost for shield mods, or you take such terrible flux/damage on your shield that all that extra capacity and vents you think you have will be offset.

Conquest isn't meant to get in the face of brawlers. Got 2 sides with decent armor that won't get hit by the ugliest guns at range.
Really not a fan of the atrocious shields(even bad civs don't have 1.4) but the conquest can mostly work around them(tachyon paragon aside).

To be honest, I am afraid that Alex will go the way of all devs and just nerf the next fun thing, rather than buff the thing that is weak. In this case rather than Conquest being brought up to speed, the Odyssey will take a hit.

No need to worry, don't think too many people other than you think Conquest needs a rework

[Ali]

Mod paragon from ship/weapon pack I think? Gets my vote.  5 Lance's is so pretty & I usually swap out its default system to energy overdrive for even more beam godliness!

[From a Faster Time]

Pointed out that your picture is missing the most important thing, bulk of Conquest's mobility comes from the jets.

About that....
Look at the Conquest acceleration/deceleration/max turn rate/ turn acceleration. Now remember that Odyssey has plasma burn on top of it's good stats.

No need to worry, don't think too many people other than you think Conquest needs a rework

I worry a lot countless devs have taken the "just nerf it" approach many times, over many years, the fact I even dare to bring this discussion up, is pure optimism on my part.

As mentioned before Odyssey is 60 DP so it should be better. 3 Conquests against 2 Odysseys should be the basis for comparisons(even that's bad, in fleet battles your aren't 1v1ing other capitals).

About that?
To be honest, I find it distressing when I am trying to argue the finer points of balance on ships, when people can't even get simple stats like deployment points right. It makes it seem hopeless that I will get through with some of less straight forward balance comparisons.

[Draba]

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My bad, dunno why I was stuck on 60.
Note that plasma jets != plasma burn. Plasma jets is the most awesome mobility active in the game(ok tied with skimmer), Aurora has it.
Plasma burn is a short forward-only bump, nowhere near as universal.

Also, having a big burst available is very different from half of it being constantly active.
Look at tachyon/phase lance for an illustration, just comparing stats is pointless(and again, ignores that plasma burn is forward only).

[From a Faster Time]

Note that plasma jets != plasma burn. Plasma jets is the most awesome mobility active in the game(ok tied with skimmer), Aurora has it.
Plasma burn is a short forward-only bump, nowhere near as universal.

Yeah I know, I used the wrong word, but I know what it has. And I still think it's great. The Odyssey is really good with the plasma burn, add the Auxilary Thusters and it's perfect.

Also, having a big burst available is very different from half of it being constantly active.

I know, which is why Plasma Burn Odyssey is even better than Conquest with Maneuvering Jets. The burst of speed lets you dodge things much better, ram things better, get behind things better.

Look at tachyon/phase lance for an illustration, just comparing stat is pointless(and again, ignore that plasma burn is forward only).

I really though I had provided irrefutable proof by this point.
So I take it you looked at all the objective data I provided and said "you just can't compare the two they are different" and that's where it ended?

[intrinsic_parity]

Being only able to dodge in one direction is a disadvantage, however you spin it, especially if you don't have exceptional defenses/brawling capability. Being able to dodge backwards at a moderate speed is more valuable than being able to dodge forwards at a high speed, especially if you have very long range weapons as the conquest can use. Kiting is valuable.

Another thought, big shield arcs are not always good. You end up blocking damage that wouldn't have hit you which is a significant disadvantage.

Also its been implied that energy weapons are on par with ballistics which is absolutely not true. Energy weapons generally achieve 1:1 flux/damage ratios but ballistics have specialized damage and can easily achieve 2:1 flux ratios and better if fired at the correct times. Player ships that can mount ballistics have a massive advantage in flux/damage ratios because of this, so the fact that the conquest also has great flux stats means it has a massive firepower advantage over the odyssey. Sure if you are knife fighting, it's defenses will be a liability, but ballistics can also give you 1000 range so you can just avoid having to depend on those sub par defenses.

Is the conquest the best capital? No. Could it maybe use some small buffs to give it a more distinct niche? maybe, but it's definitely not outclassed. It can hold its own against other capitals, has a relatively low deployment cost, and can provide a ton of firepower with 2 large missiles and 2 large ballistics.

[Draba]

Look at tachyon/phase lance for an illustration, just comparing stat is pointless(and again, ignore that plasma burn is forward only).

I really though I had provided irrefutable proof by this point.
So I take it you looked at all the objective data I provided and said "you just can't compare the two they are different" and that's where it ended?

Nvm then, I just missed the point.

Onslaught has +200 speed from burndrive with 50% uptime, direction and turnrate don't matter.
That means Onslaught(+Legion) are the fastest and most agile capitals in the game.

Onslaught has 3 forward large slots and 2 awesome builtins, only L slot count matters(except missiles ofc).
Onslaught also has much higher firepower than Conquest/Odyssey(higher cap/lower diss than Odyssey, but we are ignoring that anyway).

So to sum it up, Onslaught has much better mobility AND is stronger than Odyssey.
Whenever you think about getting an Odyssey just go Onslaught, now you have irrefutable proof it's better.
Dunno why this was even a question, numbers do not lie.

Being only able to dodge in one direction is a disadvantage, however you spin it, especially if you don't have exceptional defenses/brawling capability. Being able to dodge backwards at a moderate speed is more valuable than being able to dodge forwards at a high speed, especially if you have very long range weapons as the conquest can use. Kiting is valuable.

Note that jet means it can also move away sideways while keeping guns up.
Gauss cannon + optics tactical/ion/graviton are all 1200 base range. 700 hardflux kinetic DPS is great at that distance, missiles are there for HE.

I do think 1.4 shields are overkill but that just means you keep it at range and use armor more.
As I've written earlier I also prefer the Odyssey but yep, Conquest is definitely not trash.

[From a Faster Time]

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Nice strawman.

[Draba]

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Nice strawman.

Numbers don't lie, just look at the objective data I provided and use Onslaught.
Now there's proof it's better.

I agree it looks ridiculous but this was your position: punching in the averaged mobility stats, ignoring turnrate and how they actually work = Odyssey has better mobility.
If you are doing that Onslaught is the ultimate ninja gracefully weaving through the battlefield.

[From a Faster Time]

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Nice strawman.

Numbers don't lie, just look at the objective data I provided and use Onslaught.
Now there's proof it's better.

I agree it looks ridiculous but this was your position: punching in the averaged mobility stats, ignoring turnrate and how they actually work = Odyssey has better mobility.
If you are doing that Onslaught is the ultimate ninja gracefully weaving through the battlefield.

I provided plenty of data relevant to max speed, acceleration, deceleration, max turn rate, turn acceleration. All of which you ignored.
You ignored all of it. Made a strawman that only top speed matters, used onslaught as an example vs Odyssey which don't compete for the same role, numbers provided by me before explain clearly why.
Now rather than address any of the data or points I provided and make a counter argument on said points you keep attacking the strawman you yourself made. I suppose this is the part where you pat yourself on the back for defeating your own strawman?

[Draba]

I provided plenty of data relevant to max speed, acceleration, deceleration, max turn rate, turn acceleration. All of which you ignored.
You ignored all of it. Made a strawman that only top speed matters, used onslaught as an example vs Odyssey which don't compete for the same role, numbers provided by me before explain clearly why.
Now rather than address any of the data or points I provided and make a counter argument on said points you keep attacking the strawman you yourself made. I suppose this is the part where you pat yourself on the back for defeating your own strawman?

I've said earlier that plasma burn is forward only and conquest bonus working in every direction, overal better turnrate and getting the boost condensed over a smaller timeframe matters.
Having a B side with decent armor and relatively cheap weapons also matters. Ballistic instead of energy matters.
If you do not see the difference dunno what to tell you, keep focusing on the average deceleration/turn acceleration values. Irrefutable proof, FFS how stupid is that.
Nobody stops you from spamming Odyssey in an SP game, I also like it better.

[From a Faster Time]

I've said earlier that plasma burn is forward only and conquest bonus working in every direction,

Yes, except you neglect the acceleration and top speed numbers that I provided on the conquest default, conquest with Maneuverability jets and Odyssey at it's default. Odyssey has better base stats. You keep ignoring that fact and keep focusing Manuvering jets vs Plasma Burn.

overal better turnrate and getting the boost condensed over a smaller timeframe matters.

Ironic since condensed boost over a smaller time frame is what odyssey has over the conquest with it's plasma burn.

Having a B side with decent armor and relatively cheap weapons also matters.

But a more efficient flux/damage shield doesn't? Also the armor difference is 200 points.

Ballistic instead of energy matters.

As said before, some people consider energy weapons superior and in fact energy weapons have some of the higher firepower options.

If you do not see the difference dunno what to tell you

I can see the difference, the problem is that you don't consider all of the parameters and think some of the downsides are actually positives.

, keep focusing on the average deceleration/turn acceleration values. Irrefutable proof, FFS how stupid is that.

Can't resist attacking your strawman?

Nobody stops you from spamming Odyssey in an SP game, I also like it better.

And nobody is stopping you from playing what ever you want. However the argument wasn't "what is the only flagship anybody should be allowed to use", but "here are multiple reasons, backed up by numbers as to why Conquest no longer has a niche that it's strongest at and why other capital ships outclass it".

[Camael]

Always loved the conquest, was my favourite ship from day one, precisely because the battlecruiser-school actually makes sense when done right. Also, glass-cannons are the best player ships - they can get the most benefit out of intelligent piloting. What I miss on the conquest is not so much speed (seriously, how often does one face an odyssey...?) though it would be nice, but the outranging aspect.

My suggestion would be to make "heavy ballistics integration" a bit more involved, giving a specific range bonus to heavy ballistics and possibly a fire rate bonus and/or flux use bonus. It would make sense, a ship designed around that philosophy should be built from the ground up to support its big guns as well as possible. That would really make circling tactics more viable, as the idea would be to never even get into range of the nasty brawlers. Otherwise the most cost-effective fleet is always a bucketload of D-Mod dominators and enforcers.

I therefore raise the petition to save the conquest, through better integration of heavy ballistics!


(also, *laughs in dual storm-needlers...*)