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Author Topic: Money should not be free  (Read 10443 times)

ith

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2018, 02:55:46 PM »

Hmm. So I get what you're saying, but does this really hold up?

An experienced player isn't going to wait around for the stipend to tick while doing analyze missions - not because it isn't fun, but because they can ramp up way, way, way faster by using those analyze missions as starting points for salvage expeditions. Or by doing something else (bounty hunting etc) to get going.

So, yeah, technically it's reward with no risk, but it really just acts as a mitigator for the calculated risks you can take while it's ticking. This covers "analyze" missions, too; grinding them is slower than the alternative, even if you factor in the risks not paying off sometimes.

For a less experienced player, they're not going to have "how to get to endgame in an easy, slow, and boring way" mapped out (due to being inexperienced), so again, this stuff ought to act as a mitigator, analyze missions will naturally lead them into salvaging ("hey, what's that other sensor contact nearby?"), and so on.

I feel like "all reward and no risk" is indeed dangerous, but primarily if it's not passive. Then the player may feel forced to do it instead of doing more interesting, higher risk/reward activities. When it's passive - and comparatively minor, to boot - it's just a backdrop to other stuff they'll be doing.

With the Wayfarer/Shepherd start, you can easily make a quick 100K from a couple of exploration missions with very little risk. That lets you build a small exploration fleet (a Dram, 2-3 more frigates, a weaponless SO Mule or two) that can pretty much escape anything and can do strings of scanning/survey missions that are in roughly the same direction on the map. You have the firepower to kill early automated defenses (even with your own ship on autopilot), you can usually escape from pirates etc without losses, and you soon have the cargo capacity to haul whatever worthwhile salvage you come across. By the end of the first cycle I had 500K doing this just now, no reloads, no very valuable finds, no selling on the black market, even.

It's likely that a good player will be able to make more from combat bounties etc, but with exploration having this kind of payoff hunting pirate frigates in Corvus for 1500 a pop or even doing named bounties for 50K at the start doesn't really make sense for an average player. You're even doing things you want to do anyway: finding good colony sites, finding blueprints, nanoforges etc, which keeps it from being too boring.

These types of exploration fleets feel like they should be a viable playstyle, but the rewards seem really high. In particular, they're really high at the start compared to everything else; you'll quickly hit the max level of income you can get from exploration (roughly 1 million a cycle, maybe, without being laser-focused) and stay there for as long as you want.
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Sundog

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2018, 04:32:48 PM »

That's a fair point. I'll just say that right now what "beat the game" means is... not exactly well-defined.
Oh, for sure, but I think it's safe to assume that amassing wealth will be a very important step in accomplishing any endgame goal.

Is it really no risk? It seems like there's some baseline risk regardless, and bringing more ships along to take full advantage of the salvage is only incrementally more risky.
I think ith put it very well. There are also these two threads:
Wreckage scanning missions should pay much less than planet surveys
Most overpowered starter ship, the Dram
So, yeah, there's some risk, but it's not nearly enough. In fact, I'm thinking the root of the problem has more to do with the safety and predictability of the outer systems in general, rather than just analyze missions. Perhaps what's needed is more chaos out in the wilderness, especially for small fleets, like SCCs example of the orange beacon system. Some other ideas:
  • More small, fast, aggressive remnant fleets in safe systems.
  • Upon arriving at the derelict or probe, you could find that it was just destroyed by a small fleet in order to keep the analysis from being performed. The only way to beat the mission would be to catch and destroy the fleet or persuade it's commander to spill the beans. This might even provide a bonus.
  • Probe defenses could prevent analysis the same way they prevent salvage operations.
  • The sensor package might inform you that the derelict needs to be hauled to one of your employer's colonies for further analysis in order to receive full payment, prompting you to either refuse, or recover the derelict into your fleet. Again, a bonus could be payed for doing this.
  • Additional highly dangerous terrain (things like pulsars can make searching for analyze targets a lot more interesting)
I still like the idea of a sensor strength requirement, but making analysis missions even slightly more dangerous could also go a long way toward making them less grindy.

Megas

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2018, 06:28:52 AM »

The thing about contact missions is a solo Dram or one with a few Shepherds (and possibly Mudskipper) can burn 20 toward anywhere in the sector cheaply and quickly, and if they suffer the misfortune of getting caught, reload and try again a minute later.  However, I like this because it is way for the player to earn money if he fell behind combat opposition and cannot catch up.  With current difficulty spikes, it is a real possibility that player can fall behind and cannot keep up before reaching endgame.
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ith

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2018, 07:37:27 AM »

The thing about contact missions is a solo Dram or one with a few Shepherds (and possibly Mudskipper) can burn 20 toward anywhere in the sector cheaply and quickly, and if they suffer the misfortune of getting caught, reload and try again a minute later.  However, I like this because it is way for the player to earn money if he fell behind combat opposition and cannot catch up.  With current difficulty spikes, it is a real possibility that player can fall behind and cannot keep up before reaching endgame.

That's OK for the late midgame on, when you typically have better ways of making money, but the way it is now it completely lets you skip the initial gradual buildup of your fleet you had in previous versions.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2018, 07:40:24 AM »

I just want to chime in and say I love the idea of blockades as well -- particularly with factions you are in good standing with. It definitely feels like the appropriate ramp up to eventual hostilities with former friends.

Just don't make it boring with enormous text dialogues, like that ghastly Star Wars prequel.

And yes, I'd also like to see normal mode without the Galatian stipend, it simply isn't necessary for anyone but a first time player. It even inhibits my ability to see how well I'm doing month to month due to the constant cash influx. Sometimes I don't want the total pain of spacerStart though.


The thing about contact missions is a solo Dram or one with a few Shepherds (and possibly Mudskipper) can burn 20 toward anywhere in the sector cheaply and quickly, and if they suffer the misfortune of getting caught, reload and try again a minute later. 

#abolishReloading   The procGen exploration aspect of the game is more or less ruined by having save/load in the hands of the player. Make it like Nethack or something. But with an escape pod and a bank account so dying shouldn't be such a big deal.
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Wyvern

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2018, 09:57:23 AM »

Honestly, I'd like to see a bit more [REDACTED] presence in general, especially in yellow warning systems.  Right now, the largest fleet I've seen in a yellow system is two frigates.  Which is just not a threat to, oh, anyone who's gone through the tutorial and has even d-modded hammerhead + wolf, nevermind anyone using one of the advanced start options.

Yellow warning systems should have fleets with destroyers.  Small fleets, yes, topping out at maybe two destroyers and four frigates for the very rarest largest versions, but still.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2018, 10:10:10 AM »

That's OK for the late midgame on, when you typically have better ways of making money, but the way it is now it completely lets you skip the initial gradual buildup of your fleet you had in previous versions.
I am perfectly fine skipping the early-game grind.  That is my least favorite part of the game.
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ith

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2018, 01:18:09 PM »

That's OK for the late midgame on, when you typically have better ways of making money, but the way it is now it completely lets you skip the initial gradual buildup of your fleet you had in previous versions.
I am perfectly fine skipping the early-game grind.  That is my least favorite part of the game.
You could always argue for a new starting option, say 'level 25 with a million credits'. That's not really the discussion we're having here, though.
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Megas

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2018, 02:12:59 PM »

No need to ask for another option when the current fast pace is fine.  What is asked for is slowing the pace down for the sake of drawing out early-game (which I think is nonsense).
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JustALittleGravitas

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2018, 04:09:59 PM »

Honestly, I'd like to see a bit more [REDACTED] presence in general, especially in yellow warning systems.  Right now, the largest fleet I've seen in a yellow system is two frigates.  Which is just not a threat to, oh, anyone who's gone through the tutorial and has even d-modded hammerhead + wolf, nevermind anyone using one of the advanced start options.

Yellow warning systems should have fleets with destroyers.  Small fleets, yes, topping out at maybe two destroyers and four frigates for the very rarest largest versions, but still.

I think you mean Green?  Yellows immediately upgrade to multi cruiser attack fleets.  Making Greens have destroyers would make that less of an absurd difficulty jump without being impossible for noobish fleets.
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Sundog

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2018, 04:15:44 PM »

What is asked for is slowing the pace down for the sake of drawing out early-game (which I think is nonsense).
Is that what you think I asked for?  Some of the suggestions I made would draw out the early game, but only as a side effect that could be compensated for. For example, the removal of commission stipends could be compensated for by increased commission bounty payouts. Early game progress could still be made quickly, it just wouldn't be handed to you on a silver platter. What I asked for is a reduction in free money for the sake of incentivizing players to earn money.

Megas

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2018, 05:08:45 PM »

@ Sundog: I did not post at you in particular.  I do not want to see just "nerf money" from someone (no one in particular) and nothing changes aside from lower income and more grinding to get out of the early-game hole.  If there are other activities and less money occurs as a by-product, fine.
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ith

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2018, 12:27:06 AM »

No need to ask for another option when the current fast pace is fine.  What is asked for is slowing the pace down for the sake of drawing out early-game (which I think is nonsense).

Well, some people (like me) enjoy the early game, and the current rewards for exploration just trivialises it. If bypassing the frigate/destroyer stage and going straight for cruisers by doing exploration is the only sensible way to play, and you can do that risk-free in 45 minutes the same way every time, why have those 45 minutes of gameplay there at all? Why not have a greater variety of starting options and let people who want to have a drawn-out early game do that?
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Flying Birdy

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2018, 09:01:31 AM »

No need to ask for another option when the current fast pace is fine.  What is asked for is slowing the pace down for the sake of drawing out early-game (which I think is nonsense).

Well, some people (like me) enjoy the early game, and the current rewards for exploration just trivialises it. If bypassing the frigate/destroyer stage and going straight for cruisers by doing exploration is the only sensible way to play, and you can do that risk-free in 45 minutes the same way every time, why have those 45 minutes of gameplay there at all? Why not have a greater variety of starting options and let people who want to have a drawn-out early game do that?

I'm in agreement with you in this regard. The early game used to be one of my favorite parts of the game where, as a pirate or LP in Nexelerin, the hit and run of merchant fleets using fast 10-burn fleets was amazing. There was just so much complexity, risk, and strategy in how to best set-up trade ambushes while trying to avoid patrols. And getting my first big score of drugs and organs meant that I can buy a bigger destroyer to kill things more easily. This was typically one of the most interesting part of the game for me, as it had challenges.

I actually think the game becomes far too easy once you hit the cruiser and colony stage. There's not a whole lot of difficult decision making during this phase - its actually becomes more grindy for me, only this grind involves less decision making. Need a particular ship or weapon? endlessly survey until you find enough ruins/habitats/research stations for a blue print. Money is basically a non-issue right now, with how over-powered colonies are.

I really wish that Alex will release a solid pirate or LP campaign. I do want to play a game where everyone tries to kill me, and my survival depends on making really good decisions in picking battles, as opposed to endlessly surveying for free $$.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Money should not be free
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2018, 11:34:30 AM »

Well, some people (like me) enjoy the early game, and the current rewards for exploration just trivialises it. If bypassing the frigate/destroyer stage and going straight for cruisers by doing exploration is the only sensible way to play, and you can do that risk-free in 45 minutes the same way every time, why have those 45 minutes of gameplay there at all? Why not have a greater variety of starting options and let people who want to have a drawn-out early game do that?
If you think exploration with a sneaky fleet that never fights anything is too trivializing then....don't do it? It's still very much possible to play the game the intended way, by working your way up to progressively bigger ships and fleets while mostly fighting and taking odd jobs and actually playing the game. And it's very much fun to do it.
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