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[Tartiflette]

So, this started as a reflection about the Derelicts (or the Remnants), exploration and how there are some things bothering me about them... But it went on and on through a series of "what-if". Usually I'm not fond of Big Wall-o-Text Gameplay Suggestion threads in general, but this one was too tempting to write if only to feed some thoughts and discussions. So here are my grievances with Derelicts and Exploration:

 - Derelict encounters are leveled instead of seeded on the map (I know there was issues when it was the case), meaning you have to deal with small fry before getting to the meaty stuff.
 - In general their smaller fleets are closer to the core worlds and conversely, thus you have to travel far away to finally encounter more interesting stuff.
 - How comes that nobody ever visited those close-by systems in 200+ cycles anyway?

   While I understand very well why that is from a game design perspective (closer to the core = safer) that clearly doesn't make any sense in-universe: How come that the various factions dealt with the nearby big menaces but couldn't cleanup their doorstep from the trash? I think that a clear case of game-ism circular logic, it is done that way because a lot of open world games are done that way. But how the game world would look if it was done the logical way?

   What we know is that the various factions try to keep a close lid on their territories, that Derelicts do not rebuild or move around, and Remnants kind of want to keep out of sight. Additionally, tech-mining and recycling are supposedly big things in the Sector.

   Logic would then dictates that the worlds around the core would have long been cleaned up from all the small easy-to-deal-with [Derelict]/Remnant fleets. And only a few large menaces would be left only because no faction would have dedicated the resources to clear them out yet. Thus the nearby systems should be relatively safe and "dry" except for a handful of hotspots clearly signaled by beacons. Going farther from the core, we could start to see systems that have yet to be visited, with the whole shebang of smaller derelict fleets to clear and a wider range of ruins to pilfer, while the amount of big dangerous fleet remaining about the same.
   
   But if the worlds around the core have been tech-mined already, that means even the other factions have to venture deep in outer space you say. Indeed they have to, and they also might have just the right tool to make that more manageable: Outposts! Heavily protected advanced bases deep in the fringes, surrounded by small [Derelict]/Remnant fleets and ruins dripping of easy loot. A few of them for the various factions would go a long way to liven up the remote hyper space regions.

   So now we would have largely safe area around the core with just the few last remaining high level red spot (that would be so perfect for "Clear the system" type missions) and an easy access to the exploration stuff via the faction outposts farther away. But that might confuse the new players that now have to go farther to find the easier targets you say! Again, right you are... Except if the player starts around one of these outposts! Instead of being thrown out in the big pond just in the middle of dozens of systems and hundreds of markets and surrounded by pirates/patrols, they start in a smaller safer pond, with a few markets, little pirate presence but easy loot/exploration available next door.

   Even better, those remote outposts would create clear "trade-lanes", either to ride with or plunder. We could even see large heavily protected convoys go back and forth the core worlds to exchange all the technological goodies found in the fringes for those much needed manufactured goods or food. And Convoys sound a lot like a "if you have the right amount of fuel and credits we get you to the core/fringes" kind of fast travel system to me...

   Additionally, those outposts could help to add some variety to the hyperspace map, as they could be at the heart of clusters of stars separated by areas of space almost (but not completely) devoid of systems. Those areas wouldn't be physically separated from each other, but would create constellations if you will. And the lone remote stars in dark space would indeed make good hideouts for legendary characters and rogue AIs.

   So here you have it: new players start in a smaller, more manageable, area. Advanced players can get to the meaty derelict/remnant stuff faster, of just buy their way to the core immediately for faction warfare. The map is no longer just procedural stuff out of the core worlds, and there is some traffic to liven up hyperspace. Placing new Outposts in unoccupied star clusters and connecting them via Convoys would add another layer to their creation, further incentivizing exploration and spreading them out. And best thing of all? It requires nearly 0 additional feature, just one new "Convoy Manager" type character with a dialog in stations and some adjustments to existing ones.

   But why were the [Derelict]/Remnant fleets leveled up in the first place? Well because when they were uniformly seeded on the map, fighting small fry all the time at high level was quite bothersome... And unavoidable because Derelict and Remnants cannot flee. With this system, the closer you get to the core, the fewer small fry you encounter since it has theoretically been cleared out already. And allowing tiny fleets to flee would probably prevent that issue from occurring again.

[SafariJohn]

Nice, I like it.

would have long been cleaned up from all the small easy-to-deal-with Remnant fleets

Heavily protected advanced bases deep in the fringes, surrounded by small Remnant fleets

But why were the remnant fleets leveled up

These spots seemed kind of confused to me. Do you mean Derelict fleets? Both? Or actually Remnants?

[Tartiflette]

Language thing, they are almost synonyms to me. I meant Derelicts most of the time but it would apply to Remnants too.

[Megas]

If the factions was not at each others' throats, most or all of the sector should be colonized, and it would not be possible for the player to build his own colony and faction.  The only way I can see the player building up under the major factions' noses is they are too distracted to deal with the player, who they probably consider yet another lowlife.

[Thaago]

I very much like the idea of there being a few colonies in the 'mid' reaches of the map, perhaps 1/3 or 1/2 of the way out from the core worlds, with good salvage opportunities/missions around them and convoys going back to the core worlds. I do love the feeling of being really far out though: exploring outer star systems is relaxing and they are gorgeous, and that low level feeling of 'well I'm alone out here, better not screw up with supplies and fuel' gives everything just a bit of an edge.

I can imagine that the player could take a mission from the colony administrator to escort a convoy to the core worlds for some reasonable fee (and be a trigger for spawning some pirates in the path...): this would give early game players another thing to do and let them travel around a bit without burning through resources (as they are being paid). It shouldn't be enough credits to compete with more than the lowest level bounties though: we don't want the players to just be endlessly escorting.

[Alex]

(Just to clear up a small point: neither remnants nor derelicts are "leveled", since the common usage of that implies being tied to the player's level. I'm sure you're aware they're not, and I get what you mean, but to someone else reading this it might be confusing.)

Regarding realism: I actually think we're on the same page here. What's currently in the game is "lower density/scale of stuff closer to the core worlds". What you're suggesting is ramping that up to where the area around the core is mostly clear. To me that feels like a relatively minor difference. There's all sorts of reasons why factions might conduct major cleanup operations and not bother with the small fry, if anything, some stuff slipping through seems like the more real-feeling option to me.

As far as outposts like that, this is interesting. The idea of starting the player at one of those could be good, not necessarily for exploration reasons, but just to cut down on new-player-overload. It could also lead to a more natural "establish a colony" type tutorial mission - say the outpost colony needs more of X and it's not getting it from the core, but there's a nearby planet with the resource. Then the player would get both an intro to "how to colonize" and become aware of how exporting for profit works.

Hmm. Could totally see moving Galatia out a bit to serve this purpose; I think this has a lot of potential in smoothly hooking up a colonizing segment to the tutorial. It might also make sense to focus some more early-game activity around Galatia rather than directing the player to go to Corvus.


As far as such outposts serving as exploration hubs, I'm not sure that it would be good for the feel. Like, it's good for some of the space to be really empty, right? And not positioned close to a loot-drop-off-point-and-fast-travel-hub for your convenience, which might just make it feel like you're in a "designated exploration area". There's ultimately not *that* much fringe space around the core, and even putting a few of these outposts could put a dent in how it feels to be out there.

[intrinsic_parity]

I think there should be more pirates/explorers near the core worlds. It would make sense for the unoccupied systems around the core to have lots of pirates who are hanging out on the fringes of space to avoid the major factions. There could be cool hidden pirate bases and that sort of stuff. Then maybe remnants scale up as you get further with the biggest remnant bases on the very edge of the map. Lots of cheap loot near the core from pirate bases and pirate weapon/supply stores, lots of high tier loot out near the edge, that way the loot scales with the risk/investment you put into you expedition.

[Tartiflette]

Maybe I should have used "staged" rather than leveled, just for clarity sake... Anyway, I'm trying to avoid the whole "realism" thing because it generally doesn't hold water for long but rather go for internal consistency and logic.

Regarding realism: I actually think we're on the same page here. What's currently in the game is "lower density/scale of stuff closer to the core worlds". What you're suggesting is ramping that up to where the area around the core is mostly clear. To me that feels like a relatively minor difference. There's all sorts of reasons why factions might conduct major cleanup operations and not bother with the small fry, if anything, some stuff slipping through seems like the more real-feeling option to me.

That wasn't exactly what I was going for, I meant that all that's left around the core are the rare "big scary stuff" and the space has been "pest controlled" over time. I think it would be interesting to have because by the time you are high level enough to fight big threats, hyperspace travel is but a thrill-less chore, and you get double punishment because your fleet is at the slowest. Removing the smaller threats would reduce the noisy encounter against tiny fleets that just don't yield anything but wasted time. And the latest larger hotspots would be justifiably made a big deal off of.

Also, I started from the idea that Derelicts do not rebuild or move around, since that's how they work in-game, so saying some stuff "slipped through" isn't represented at all as we never ever see fleets of them roaming around. If that was the case, I wouldn't have even thought about all this to begin with.

As far as such outposts serving as exploration hubs, I'm not sure that it would be good for the feel. Like, it's good for some of the space to be really empty, right? And not positioned close to a loot-drop-off-point-and-fast-travel-hub for your convenience, which might just make it feel like you're in a "designated exploration area". There's ultimately not *that* much fringe space around the core, and even putting a few of these outposts could put a dent in how it feels to be out there.

What I was going for was also for a much larger map with clearly defined dense and less dense areas. Right now the stars are more or less uniformly scattered, but having them in part clustered would allow to have a larger map with the same amount of content. It would also bring in some sense of priority: right now when going on an exploration trip, any direction will do, but if you have larger concentrations in narrower areas, coupled with friendlier or not faction advanced outposts, would clearly create preferable directions.

Or currently we have: (although not that uniform):


And I'm thinking about:

Same amount of stars, but more almost empty space to make the crowded spots feel crowded indeed.
With the isolated stars being the place to look for the more hidden stuff/larger Remnants and the cluster having a lot of Derelicts

[Linnis]

I do like the idea of star clusters and each cluster could have a difficulty deviation from normal "harder as further away"

[arwan]

...Also, I started from the idea that Derelicts do not rebuild or move around, since that's how they work in-game, so saying some stuff "slipped through" isn't represented at all as we never ever see fleets of them roaming around. If that was the case, I wouldn't have even thought about all this to begin with.

i think what he means by "slipped through" is that the fleets have passed over them and did not notice the derelicts when they did so. akin to hiding in a fox hole and letting an army march over your lines. you slipped through even though you did not move.

as far as having outposts i could see the appeal. but right now with the size of the map. i dont know if it would support them very well. even less so once you start adding in mods that add factions. things would get crowded very quickly. or at least feel that way. and if you were to expand the core and out post areas to make up for that all of a sudden you find yourself with not that much of anything beyond them.

if the map sized increased though. or could be increased by the player at universe creation. then i think that problem could be overcome and then the outposts would IMHO work better.

[Tartiflette]

Personally I think it would on the contrary help mods, as they wouldn't need to be all clustered in the core anymore but could be entirely located in other clusters. Right now it is the core space that is pretty damn crowded once more than a few mods are installed, and they have to be placed in the core worlds because that's where the action is. Look at what people think of the location of Diable Avionic's Outer Terminus that is barely away from the core worlds.

[Alex]

i think what he means by "slipped through" is that the fleets have passed over them and did not notice the derelicts when they did so. akin to hiding in a fox hole and letting an army march over your lines. you slipped through even though you did not move.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry it was unclear!

Same amount of stars, but more almost empty space to make the crowded spots feel crowded indeed.
With the isolated stars being the place to look for the more hidden stuff/larger Remnants and the cluster having a lot of Derelicts

I see what you mean, yeah. So basically current constellations, but more pronounced. Likely issues: hyperspace terrain doesn't scale terribly well in terms of memory/performance/etc as size goes up; travel times would increase (though you do suggest fast travel, but that's a can of worms I really don't want to open). But then it might work without getting all that much larger.

I do really like some aspects of this, though, hmm. As you point out, a lone star far off from everything would automatically be interesting; you could get some information just from looking at the map.

(On a related note, I wonder: has anyone made the connection that star systems with proper names rather than, say, "Beta Cygnus", tend to have more interesting stuff in them?)

[arwan]

can honestly say i have not made that connection. i very often do not use the names over lay on the map so i have no chance of making the connection to begin with.. that being said even if i did have the names overlay on i doubt i would have made the connection either if only because there is nothing that says. hey look here.. what you found was "more interesting" and here is some story, or a reward etc. something that could not be explained away as completely random.

[Tartiflette]

I see what you mean, yeah. So basically current constellations, but more pronounced. Likely issues: hyperspace terrain doesn't scale terribly well in terms of memory/performance/etc as size goes up; travel times would increase (though you do suggest fast travel, but that's a can of worms I really don't want to open). But then it might work without getting all that much larger.

Fast travel is indeed a can of worm, but in this instance it would only be paid for (percentage of the cargo value?), fueled for and only use limited point-to-point connections ( I would see 4-5 of those lines max at the start), so it's not like it would gut hyperspace travel entirely or open too many money-printing trading shortcuts. Then most fleet movements would on a same or even smaller scale than currently inside a given cluster, and only occasionally a player would move from cluster to cluster.

And even if they are not formally setup, the natural "tradelanes" that will from between outposts and core worlds could help new players navigation, has they could follow a fleet to travel in relative safety. And the possibilities for highway plundering events (with the player on either side) could be interesting enough by themselves.

As for hyperspace performance, well I'm sorry to say it but I don't find the visuals too appealing, as the texture repetitions are quite visible. I think fewer but much larger texture clouds with random rotations would yield a much better result at least visually, and maybe it would help with performances with a lot less "points" on the map to eat up memory?

Current look:


Just the current 16 patches of nebula texture shuffled around:

[Wyvern]

Personally, I'd rather have a few fast travel links than Sustained Burn; the latter collapses an entire gameplay component (ship speed) into "meh doesn't matter just keep SB running".