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Author Topic: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production  (Read 62328 times)

Eji1700

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #120 on: February 15, 2018, 06:28:26 PM »

Late to the party but I do have some questions:

Will we be able to convert ships/modify ships?

There's quite a few ships which are converted into battle variants according to their flavor text,  and I personally really like the idea of taking the various freighters and being able to jury rig them into their combat worthy(ish) versions.  I personally hope this will help give more reason to care about freighters as right now a large majority of them are nothing more than passive upgrades to your cargo/fuel at the cost of speed (and i really like the idea of a sort of weaponized mega corp with powerful freighters).

To add to this I kinda like the idea of some hull mods being a bit better than the current batch (or even some from the current batch) but they require use of specific facilities, and thus cannot be done at all in flight, and only on some planets, which would give incentive to have your own outposts with these facilities.
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knogleknuser

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2018, 12:44:33 AM »

One of the things i was looking forward to was investing a *** ton of money into a bunch of colonies in the far fringes of the map, to allow the mass production of supplies and fuel in said fringes, so I could explore the area with a closer fall back point. (Late game thingy.) I strongly urge you to make it possible to mass produce just about any commodity that other factions can mass produce, provided you have the resources, credits, workforce, industry and knowledge to do so. So i REALLY hope you reconsider your current approach regarding supplies and fuel.

I really also hope there will be an import feature, as in you can request to keep a specific amount of things stockpiled at the colony you desire. Said colony will then import it for a hefty price tag  especially if the colony has low accessibility (Transport fees, fuel cost. Later on one could rely on ones "own" trader fleets to lower the price a bit, if the colony is large enough).

This would allow the player to for example. Create really expensive resupply points, even if the colony isn't that developed. (Of course if the colony is in the core systems its just a semi expensive resupply point). Or keep some specific guns ready for reclaimed hull, ect.

Btw, i don't expect any of this to be profitable or cheaper than the alternatives (actually the opposite at least for the first 50 years or so).

P.S. I made an account just to write this post.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 12:48:37 AM by knogleknuser »
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Linnis

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #122 on: February 16, 2018, 01:17:45 AM »

I do hope there will be an option to observe player-made fleets when they engage in battle. Things are quite a bit more personal now that your own colonies can build fleets, so hopefully there'll be something like a "Remote Battle Feed" type option to see their battles play out properly, if you so choose.

Wasn't planning on this sort of thing, to be honest. It seems like asking for trouble in various ways, design-wise. (Just one quick example: suppose watching the battle usually makes it play out more favorably than autoresolve, due to the specifics of ships and loadouts. Oops, now you have to watch every battle.)

I can feel the excitement in everyone's posts at this point.

Anyways, could there be some kind of battle report after an battle involving the player fleets? Stuff like what happened and where, with an adjustable filter for what kinds of fleets are involved and minimum battle size to be displayed?
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Draba

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #123 on: February 16, 2018, 01:58:23 AM »

I'd imagine colonies will produce some amount of supplies and fuel (provided they have the relevant industry, i.e. Heavy Industry), though I'm not sure whether the amount produced should be sufficient to keep a large fleet going, and what the opportunity cost of taking advantage of this would be.
One of the things i was looking forward to was investing a *** ton of money into a bunch of colonies in the far fringes of the map, to allow the mass production of supplies and fuel in said fringes, so I could explore the area with a closer fall back point. (Late game thingy.) I strongly urge you to make it possible to mass produce just about any commodity that other factions can mass produce, provided you have the resources, credits, workforce, industry and knowledge to do so. So i REALLY hope you reconsider your current approach regarding supplies and fuel.

I also think it'd be nice if great colonies could potentially be enough to maintain even the biggest fleets.
It gives the player the option to shift the action from the big core producers and is a nice convenience feature later in the game.

Some guesses on how it could be balanced:
- supplies not sold reduce trade income, the reduction is higher than the price you could could manually sell them at(if you really want to make it higher than what you could buy at)
- stockpiling supplies is a negative growth modifier
- big stockpiles attract raiders, especially on worlds far from the core
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:01:01 AM by Draba »
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Gothars

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #124 on: February 16, 2018, 09:57:09 AM »

Will we be able to convert ships/modify ships?

As I understand it, converted ships come from converted/hacked blueprints. They are not handcrafted modifications of already build ships (anymore).
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Alex

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #125 on: February 16, 2018, 10:45:26 AM »

Probably better to do away with quantities on stations and just have stations sell for a fixed price.

Interesting idea; definitely outside the box :) That does get weird, though - suppose one colony needs metal, and another one supplies a tiny bit. You would, for example, be able to by infinity metal to hand-supply your other colony. I think the idea just goes against a lot of assumptions that govern how other things work, so it'd break a bunch of things.


To add to this I kinda like the idea of some hull mods being a bit better than the current batch (or even some from the current batch) but they require use of specific facilities, and thus cannot be done at all in flight, and only on some planets, which would give incentive to have your own outposts with these facilities.

On the flipside, could get a bit tedious having to go to a specific location to refit. Doesn't seem like it's related to blueprints/ship production (except maybe tangentially); more in the "extra incentives to have colonies" box, but hopefully that won't require too much extra incentivizing.


Will we be able to convert ships/modify ships?

As I understand it, converted ships come from converted/hacked blueprints. They are not handcrafted modifications of already build ships (anymore).

Functionally, yeah. In terms of backstory, much of the ship production involves human labor - e.g. welding on armor plates, putting the superstructure together, and so on. So I'd imagine some of the hacks for a Condor blueprint involve something akin to a "modspec" - i.e. altering the instructions for what to do manually. Sort of, a hacked base blueprint with an added instruction manual/assembly instructions.


P.S. I made an account just to write this post.

Welcome to the forum :)

One of the things i was looking forward to was investing a *** ton of money into a bunch of colonies in the far fringes of the map, to allow the mass production of supplies and fuel in said fringes, so I could explore the area with a closer fall back point. (Late game thingy.) I strongly urge you to make it possible to mass produce just about any commodity that other factions can mass produce, provided you have the resources, credits, workforce, industry and knowledge to do so. So i REALLY hope you reconsider your current approach regarding supplies and fuel.

Hmm - so that's a bit backwards, isn't it? You need to explore the area first, to find good worlds and systems to colonize, and *then* invest a ton of money into said colonies. Not to say that there wouldn't be some exploration left to do after you've established colonies in the area, but "heavy investment into colonies" doesn't seem like a sensible first step to exploring an area. Just in the general arc of play, "exploration" is not primarily a late-game activity.

I really also hope there will be an import feature, as in you can request to keep a specific amount of things stockpiled at the colony you desire. Said colony will then import it for a hefty price tag  especially if the colony has low accessibility (Transport fees, fuel cost. Later on one could rely on ones "own" trader fleets to lower the price a bit, if the colony is large enough).

This would allow the player to for example. Create really expensive resupply points, even if the colony isn't that developed. (Of course if the colony is in the core systems its just a semi expensive resupply point). Or keep some specific guns ready for reclaimed hull, ect.

I do totally get the appeal of being able to establish a resupply point, though. Let me think on that a bit.

Btw, i don't expect any of this to be profitable or cheaper than the alternatives (actually the opposite at least for the first 50 years or so).

Yep. Colony-produced resources having a cost of some kind is I think pretty important, even if it's just so the player doesn't feel like they have to go around collecting everything and selling it to get the most value out.

- big stockpiles attract raiders, especially on worlds far from the core

I like the way you think!


Anyways, could there be some kind of battle report after an battle involving the player fleets? Stuff like what happened and where, with an adjustable filter for what kinds of fleets are involved and minimum battle size to be displayed?

Something along these lines seems probable, though probably that extensive. Will have to see if the volume of those kinds of reports warrants filtering etc.
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Kirschbra

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #126 on: February 16, 2018, 11:39:24 AM »

So just to be clear, ALL production is based purely on credits and time? You won't need 400 units of metals and 200 heavy machinery in a stockpile to produce an Onslaught?

I dunno, part of me seems like this would be a good way to give commodities more...oomph!
Seems like you'd need a source of those materials if you wanted good production quality. Forcing the player to ferry commodities over to outposts every time you want to build something isn't much better than needing to scour every market for the ship you want.

But it would be a good reason to build mining outposts and stuff.  I think giving commodities more than just something to sell would be better
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Goumindong

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #127 on: February 16, 2018, 11:52:54 AM »

Interesting idea; definitely outside the box Smiley That does get weird, though - suppose one colony needs metal, and another one supplies a tiny bit. You would, for example, be able to by infinity metal to hand-supply your other colony. I think the idea just goes against a lot of assumptions that govern how other things work, so it'd break a bunch of things

Well only if the economic model is nonsensical. In a full economic model a colony will have a demand and supply curve for metals. This is a set of total quantity which would be purchased and sold at any given price. Imports would modify the demand down until the import price and domsestic supply price were equal. (The import price being roughly the supply cost at the importers location plus the fuel cost to fly it)

So you could buy infinity metal to hand supply your colony and make no income* under an indeterminate quantity scheme. Or you could not and NPCs would supply that metal. In the end it doesn’t matter to the player since they aren’t looking at quantity numbers for their planets production facilities. There is no way to design a sensical economic model and get continual shortages. Even if everything produces at CRS and consumes at constant utility per unit, prices and import relationships will stabilize**.

The fact that this is true is what why indeterminate quantity is ideal in video games while dependent price is not. We can have determinate price without determinate quantity but not the other way around. And we don’t care about having determinate quantity because the player never has to see it.

*economic profits but if labor time value is zero for NPCs then these are the same things. But you could also set a labor/time value and so generate consistently profitable supply lines for players. Note also that the value is not infinite but rather indeterminate. A player cannot supply more metal than they can ferry over in any given amount of time.

**more typically production should follow CRS(explaining this is a more involved argument) and should be flat while consumption would follow DRS and so should slope downward. That gives determinate quantity and prices, but in a video game we don’t care about stuff we can’t see and so final price is all that matters.  

Edit: will take it to the economy thread for a better explanation of how it works
I know that for one hate being rich and not having enough fuel to buy to run an expedition

I used to have that problem until I learned where some of the decent fuel facilities were located.

The league colony on the left side of the sector is in my opinion the best of low cost and high quantity fuel.

Sure so you can either be a league or diktat commission and then set those colonies as your home base or you can fly around to them before every expedition. It’s unwieldy. I want to pay an independent to shuttle fuel from diktat to TT headquarters so that I don’t buy the entire yearly supply of fuel in one go.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 12:23:08 PM by Goumindong »
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Alex

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #128 on: February 16, 2018, 12:30:33 PM »

Even if everything produces at CRS and consumes at constant utility per unit, prices and import relationships will stabilize**.

This is exactly the sort of model I want to get very far away from. "Everything will stabilize" in theory; in terms of implementation in any reasonable run-time given the number of markets and commodities, it's not viable. Also arguable whether it's desirable gameplay-wise.

So, perhaps: any suggestion that's based on this sort of dynamic, price-matching equilibrium model, while it might be of theoretical interest, is not super useful because it's pretty much unappicable. Also, there are a *ton* of details here that any such "overhaul" type of approach is going to miss.

I do see what you're saying about indeterminate quantity, though. Again, I think it's interesting but goes against the grain of what's already there (and what's there is there for specific reasons).

Edit: I should say, I appreciate the suggestion! It's just, well, not going to overhaul the economy yet again, you know?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:11:01 PM by Alex »
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SCC

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #129 on: February 16, 2018, 12:55:16 PM »

Well only if the economic model is nonsensical. In a full economic model a colony will have a demand and supply curve for metals.
The problem with full economic model is that it's expensive in work hours and CPU cycles, especially a dynamic one.
I do totally get the appeal of being able to establish a resupply point, though. Let me think on that a bit.
Way stations (or whatever they were called) maybe? Though I don't remember if they count for full in economy or if they're just range extenders; in the latter case they could work just fine if they had some supplies and fuel in stock by default and you could build a building to increase them.

Alex

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #130 on: February 16, 2018, 01:04:08 PM »

Way stations (or whatever they were called) maybe? Though I don't remember if they count for full in economy or if they're just range extenders; in the latter case they could work just fine if they had some supplies and fuel in stock by default and you could build a building to increase them.

Yeah, just have to make all the numbers work, so that e.g. building a waystation is not a "free supplies and fuel" fountain, that you couldn't use a partially-supplied waystation's supplies to more fully supply itself, etc. Thinking some of this through as we speak :)
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Goumindong

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #131 on: February 16, 2018, 01:22:40 PM »

Even if everything produces at CRS and consumes at constant utility per unit, prices and import relationships will stabilize**.

This is exactly the sort of model I want to get very far away from. "Everything will stabilize" in theory; in terms of implementation in any reasonable run-time given the number of markets and commodities, it's not viable. Also arguable whether it's desirable gameplay-wise.

So, perhaps: any suggestion that's based on this sort of dynamic, price-matching equilibrium model, while it might be of theoretical interest, is not super useful because it's pretty much unappicable. Also, there are a *ton* of details here that any such "overhaul" type of approach is going to miss.

I do see what you're saying about indeterminate quantity, though. Again, I think it's interesting but goes against the grain of what's already there (and what's there is there for specific reasons).

I understand that its against the grain of whats there already, but i would be shocked if it took more calculations than what you're doing already. Because the number of calculations that this should take is going to be pretty close to the minimum calculations in order to supply markets with half of the information you're suggesting they need to be supplied with.

There is only a "dynamic" price matching equilibrium when quantity is determinate*. If quantity is indeterminate then there is a corner solution price matching equilibrium.

That is, each market is only making a check against what the smaller of its own production price(which is a fixed value per unit) and the import price of other planets are (which is the sum of their production price plus the travel cost multiplied by the tariff, all of which are fixed values per unit) and then using that as its buying and selling price. This is consistent with a full economic model only if in that model supply and demand are both horizontal lines and never the two shall meet. I.E. quantity is indeterminate and price is equal to the supply price per unit. You're looking at the calculation under the assumption that a full model provides determinate price and quantity. But we don't need determinate quantity because we don't care.

As for whether its desirable? Yea its totally desirable. It abstracts an entire trade system in such a way allows players to pay the price to ship goods to places they want it, essentially creating contracts for NPC's to do grunt work they don't want to do without preventing them from doing that trading if they want to.


*It would not ever need to be dynamic. It would rather be solving static simultaneous equations. (linear or otherwise). That would be at least O(n^3) per good ***, which is ***. In this case we are solving static non-simultaneous equations which is O(n^2) per good which should be pretty much minimum theoretical big O notation for this considering there are n planets and each one needs to do a calculation which involves n number of entries)**.

**I am actually not that proficient in understanding big O notation structure I know that some calculations are easier/harder so its not quite right for me to call this O(n^2). A minimum check should be faster than a multiplication but slower than a sum (each one essentially has its own big O value which is on a different scale than the final algorithm. As an example solving a simultaneous linear equation is O(n^3) for small matrices. There are n^2 multiplications and sums to solve which makes n^3. But if those values are large each multiplication itself is technically in n^2 you're just on different n scale and here is where the technicalities of the definition get beyond the point where I care because i don't expect the individual values of any matrix i want to calculate to be large enough where the difficulty of doing the multiplication matters compared to the number of them i have to do given the size of my matrix n). My assumption is that min(1,2...n) is O(n) and so doing that n times is O(n^2). Min(1,2....n) could for all i know be O(n^0) and so the whole thing would be O(n)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 01:25:39 PM by Goumindong »
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Alex

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #132 on: February 16, 2018, 02:31:13 PM »

I understand that its against the grain of whats there already, but i would be shocked if it took more calculations than what you're doing already. Because the number of calculations that this should take is going to be pretty close to the minimum calculations in order to supply markets with half of the information you're suggesting they need to be supplied with.

There is only a "dynamic" price matching equilibrium when quantity is determinate*. If quantity is indeterminate then there is a corner solution price matching equilibrium.

That is, each market is only making a check against what the smaller of its own production price(which is a fixed value per unit) and the import price of other planets are (which is the sum of their production price plus the travel cost multiplied by the tariff, all of which are fixed values per unit) and then using that as its buying and selling price. This is consistent with a full economic model only if in that model supply and demand are both horizontal lines and never the two shall meet. I.E. quantity is indeterminate and price is equal to the supply price per unit. You're looking at the calculation under the assumption that a full model provides determinate price and quantity. But we don't need determinate quantity because we don't care.

Ahhh, gotcha, thank you for elaborating. Yes, I was indeed thinking of quantity being determinate (and that making it unfeasible). There's an added factor where the supply of one commodity feeds into the supply of another - i.e. need Ore to make Metals, need Metals to make Heavy Machinery, and... also need Heavy Machinery to mine Ore, which makes a quantity-based model pretty much not reach an equilibrium.

So! The new economy system (that is, the one in the dev build) is ... basically what you describe. Quantity is indeterminate, but there are tiers, i.e. a supply of 4 Ore can't satisfy a demand for 5 Ore, and this just acts as an extra filter when finding the best supplier. "Accessibility" maps pretty directly to "travel cost" in what you describe.

But for player-facing stuff, not dealing with quantity I think goes against the player being able to, say, have some sort of impact by bringing in a commodity if there's a shortage, that sort of thing. They could still make money by bringing it in, right, but not actually end the shortage - quantities have to be involved there - and then it gets weird since they could, say, just buy the theoretically in-shortage good from that very same colony. Or from a tiny market nearby that couldn't reasonably provide enough, in theory.

It's also nice to be able to say that, for example, "bringing X units of Y to your colony will keep it supplied for Z months". If everywhere has unlimited everything and it's just a matter of price... well, I could definitely see it working, it sounds like a reasonable system. I'm just not sure I like the feel of that for Starsector specifically.

(Also, say you need supplies: create a colony, instantly buy what you need. Then abandon it. Could be worked around, of course - but the point is, there are complications to this system as well, much like the stuff I'm working through now, just of a different flavor.)

But, yeah - thank you for the idea and elaborating on it, I'll keep it in mind as I'm thinking these things through.


**I am actually not that proficient in understanding big O notation structure I know that some calculations are easier/harder so its not quite right for me to call this O(n^2). A minimum check should be faster than a multiplication but slower than a sum (each one essentially has its own big O value which is on a different scale than the final algorithm. As an example solving a simultaneous linear equation is O(n^3) for small matrices. There are n^2 multiplications and sums to solve which makes n^3. But if those values are large each multiplication itself is technically in n^2 you're just on different n scale and here is where the technicalities of the definition get beyond the point where I care because i don't expect the individual values of any matrix i want to calculate to be large enough where the difficulty of doing the multiplication matters compared to the number of them i have to do given the size of my matrix n). My assumption is that min(1,2...n) is O(n) and so doing that n times is O(n^2). Min(1,2....n) could for all i know be O(n^0) and so the whole thing would be O(n)

(Yeah, I think you've got a good handle on it. One would just use a different letter than "n" for a different parameter. For example, the price calculation as you outline it could be called O(m * n^2), where m is the number of commodities, and n is the number of markets. But if the number of commodities is considered a constant, then as far as big O notation is concerned, it's the same as O(n^2). But of course for practical applications, the constant factor *does* matter.)
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SCC

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #133 on: February 16, 2018, 02:42:58 PM »

Yeah, just have to make all the numbers work, so that e.g. building a waystation is not a "free supplies and fuel" fountain, that you couldn't use a partially-supplied waystation's supplies to more fully supply itself, etc. Thinking some of this through as we speak :)
I thought about, like, 50 to 100 of each for a barebones and maaaybe 500 for "upgraded". Player pays opportunity cost twice (to set up and to upgrade), maybe has to buy or find a blueprint, and even after that supplies, fuel and the way station itself cost money still, right?
Way stations have storage or not? I think that storage would help both with preparing for prospecting (dumping tons of supplies, especially in the late game) and after you return with salvage. Though I feel like it starts eating into "stabilise orbit" mechanic...

knogleknuser

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Re: Blueprints, Doctrine, and Production
« Reply #134 on: February 16, 2018, 02:53:54 PM »


P.S. I made an account just to write this post.

Welcome to the forum :)

One of the things i was looking forward to was investing a *** ton of money into a bunch of colonies in the far fringes of the map, to allow the mass production of supplies and fuel in said fringes, so I could explore the area with a closer fall back point. (Late game thingy.) I strongly urge you to make it possible to mass produce just about any commodity that other factions can mass produce, provided you have the resources, credits, workforce, industry and knowledge to do so. So i REALLY hope you reconsider your current approach regarding supplies and fuel.

Hmm - so that's a bit backwards, isn't it? You need to explore the area first, to find good worlds and systems to colonize, and *then* invest a ton of money into said colonies. Not to say that there wouldn't be some exploration left to do after you've established colonies in the area, but "heavy investment into colonies" doesn't seem like a sensible first step to exploring an area. Just in the general arc of play, "exploration" is not primarily a late-game activity.

I really also hope there will be an import feature, as in you can request to keep a specific amount of things stockpiled at the colony you desire. Said colony will then import it for a hefty price tag  especially if the colony has low accessibility (Transport fees, fuel cost. Later on one could rely on ones "own" trader fleets to lower the price a bit, if the colony is large enough).

This would allow the player to for example. Create really expensive resupply points, even if the colony isn't that developed. (Of course if the colony is in the core systems its just a semi expensive resupply point). Or keep some specific guns ready for reclaimed hull, ect.

I do totally get the appeal of being able to establish a resupply point, though. Let me think on that a bit.

Btw, i don't expect any of this to be profitable or cheaper than the alternatives (actually the opposite at least for the first 50 years or so).

Yep. Colony-produced resources having a cost of some kind is I think pretty important, even if it's just so the player doesn't feel like they have to go around collecting everything and selling it to get the most value out.

Another big reason I think that it is important for the player to be able to mass produce all common commodities at some point, is that if we can't create supplies and fuel by ourselves, then we are forced to always build our main hub near the core, as we need fuel and supplies in quantities that we would only be able to buy/acquire at the other factions core worlds. 
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