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[Morrokain]

I'm testing out some PD updates using magazines and getting ready to update the DL later tonight.

basileus, I tested out Militarized Subsystems and that should be corrected for this update. Also, taking Fighter Doctrine and using Recovery Shuttles or officered carriers will now grant a significant reduction to crew losses. 95% with Recovery Shuttles or 65% with an officer. I'm not sure if I will keep it this high indefinitely because it makes the skill too valuable most likely, but it depends upon what the alternating branch is, etc, with the new skill system when that is released. At that time I will see about override settings since the implementation for that could change.

The Thunder and Hoplon should feel better than before. Their attack run range has been increased enough that more tend to survive a run. Testing was done using Executor vs Paragon so it was tested at the capital level. This will also affect other wings that use Swarmers or Rapiers, but it doesn't seem like it breaks anything - at least so far.

Speaking of the Executor, I have to be honest the OP buff seems to make it too strong. It was consistently beating Paragons before that. It doesn't beat a Megalith so its not broken or anything, but I would ideally like the Paragon/Executor/Onslaught (XIV) triangle of balance to be fairly close so I can use it as a baseline for balancing the rest of the capitals.

Since build making is important for fun outside of the consideration of balance, and I get that, does anyone have any suggestions to bring it back down to its DP level without reverting the OP? Personally, I was thinking less armor and changing the Advanced Targeting Core to a Dedicated Targeting Core would help. It has 2 DP less than a Paragon, so the fight should be close but the Paragon should have a slight advantage.

Albreo:

Spoiler

The midline is a pretty jack of all trade for me. Most of the crafts are better than low tech. Most ships have very good speed and more responsive for players that like to micro. It mostly mounts Balistic and Energy weapon which, at the right combination, is superior to pure Energy. Lack of armor and not so good shield probably its only downside. It still lacks more capitals though. I would wish for Sindrian to get one of their own and Trader to get a huge capital trade ship.

I definitely want to do that at some point alongside the aforementioned Sci-Corps capital. Midline battleship for LG and probably a midline dedicated carrier for Trader Guilds with a larger than average cargo bay. Then maybe even a dedicated lowtech missile carrier for the Diktat/Independents to round out the lineup. Obviously drawing/designing those will take plenty of time hah.

As for midline ships, Heron is super dope right now. Eagle is great all around (I should have one less craft slot). Conquest is still not that great but it's cheap to deploy more (It could get up to 4 craft slots from the look of the huge bay hangars it has)

Honestly, I gave it 4 simply because it makes it seem more like a Star Destroyer. I suppose it's weird that the Conquest only has 2 when comparing. Same thing with the Pillager.

No, no officer. I think the speed boost ability makes it tends to go forward? Not too sure but really needs to micro a lot for this ship. As for the other spec, I think it's a pretty OK ship my setup with no pilot can kill an Onslaught with a bit of a close call due to the crazy behavior of face tanking ballistics.

Hmm ok well as far as the speed boost AI that should be improved in the next Starsector release, but I'll see if the arc corrections help as well.

I was thinking if it doesn't really work out, how about make it a close quarter missile with 800 range, short gun, with very fast missile speed.

It's an option but that's kind of stepping on the Heavy Rapiers toes a bit.

I never had a Dreamcast lol. Only a Famicom.

Nice, NES was a fantastic system! One of these days I am going to get ROMs for a lot of the old games I used to play when I was a child. Some of the more obscure IPs that never made it to 3D and faded are still a lot of fun.

- AI doesn't do a good job side scraping in Conquest due to some forward facing weapon take priority. I think if the large mounts are on both sides like the original, it would work better.

They would be better for dps but not for AI. It makes the AI constantly turn back and forth which really messes with accuracy even for beams. You can build it into a "one side" broadside ship like vanilla does, but aesthetically I'm really not a fan of that.

Just in general I haven't really done much with the Conquest. It's probably worth another pass with all the weapon changes. Since it has only a small amount of surface space for additional weapon mounts, I'll probably adjust its speed and flux stats as a start.

[close]

[Albreo]

Thanks, Albreo.  I haven't had any luck with Kraken BPs or finding enough of them in markets to test it out.  Do you use them on the Herons as well?

I got the blueprint Ludic version of Kraken which maybe farmable from the Ludic fleet. It was nerfed once already. The first time, it can saturate Paragon shield in one go. Now, it still pretty good, super tanky, and will mostly survive PD no problem. Its mine can still wipe a screen of fighter effectively. But I don't have enough normal version to test it out, might consider using the console to get it.

As for Heron, I put Flash on it, totally destroy things. I think anything will be good on the Heron, especially gunship and some heavy craft. I did test most of the craft, probably going to make a tier list later to sort things out. I would recommend Trident, Cyclops, Warthog(H), Hercules, and somehow my favorite Piranha bomber.

They would be better for dps but not for AI. It makes the AI constantly turn back and forth which really messes with accuracy even for beams. You can build it into a "one side" broadside ship like vanilla does, but aesthetically I'm really not a fan of that.

Just in general I haven't really done much with the Conquest. It's probably worth another pass with all the weapon changes. Since it has only a small amount of surface space for additional weapon mounts, I'll probably adjust its speed and flux stats as a start.

Yep, I did put all weapons on one side in the original and it works out pretty good. I was going to fit fire support with all ballistic on one side and explosive on another and let the ship rotate to switch weapon but it doesn't work out so well.

[Morrokain]

Thoughts of the day:

Still working on things. I think I have magazine PD feeling good. It lets missiles through a bit but doesn't seem to impact strike craft defense - which is the goal. It also gives the Machine Gun, Electron Cannon, Micro Repeater, Pulse Laser and Shattercell Cannon unique niches in their respective weapon categories since those have a smaller window of reloading. The Pulse Laser is pretty general purpose, but the others will be great for rockets and finishing off low hp strike craft yet be less effective against high hitpoint missiles or well-defended strike craft. The ballistic aoe pd will be good at condensed clusters of any missile and great at dealing critical damage to strike craft. However, there will be roughly a 6-8 second window where they will have to reload and provide no defense at all. For smaller ships, this means complimenting the two has a larger impact. For larger ships, layering the pd lines can deal with missiles in small doses and provide a decent alpha strike against incoming strike craft waves. Just be sure to have something online when torpedo bombers release their payloads.

I've only implemented magazines in the ballistics weapon category at this point. I may leave it at that as a way of balancing the PD Cannon, Scythe Cannon, and Nova Cannon's AOE and high hit damage as they are primarily anti-strike craft weapons and need this to keep their role now that strike craft have higher armor. The energy PD weapons seem less efficient than ballistic PD, and the Burst PD and Micro Repeater weapons already have a magazine mechanic. They seem really good at missile interdiction and strike craft while active and then they become less effective after a couple of bursts. This creates windows for weapons like the Hunter or Hailstone, for example, to hit reliably during large salvos. The Burst PD Beam in particular is good at dealing with torpedoes, but is a lot worse at dealing with rockets or guided missile swarms so I think that is ok. It is decent at dealing with strike craft but not overwhelmingly so. Any of the consistent firing energy weapons should complement it well.

As another brief balance pass, I also tested the Astral using almost every strike craft wing from the Trident down to the Gauntlet in the bomber/gunship category against an Aegis cruiser to gauge relative effectiveness. The Aegis' system sometimes better separates out overwhelming strikes rather than just gauging how quickly the cruiser dies. I also did this after the pd changes to test their effectiveness against large swarms of all strike craft since the Astral has the most bays possible on a ship. For specifics: I believe I left 3 bays as a permanent interceptor/fighter screen for a test control. They contained two Retribution wings and a Liberator wing I think.

I like what I'm seeing in general but more adjustments can certainly be made I'd imagine. The lowest OP Gauntlet still killed the cruiser (capital vs cruiser should generally go this way after all) but the higher OP that was invested the faster this happened. The Thunder *might* be too strong since it isn't a legendary like the Krakken yet deals similar damage it seems, but it also takes more losses over the Hoplon or Krakken, so idk I could be wrong. Either way the next bomber/gunship up, the Paradigm, doesn't kill the Aegis all that much faster considering the OP investment to equip it.

I'll try and get the DL updated tonight if I can get everything done. Sorry for the delay!

I got the blueprint Ludic version of Kraken which maybe farmable from the Ludic fleet. It was nerfed once already. The first time, it can saturate Paragon shield in one go. Now, it still pretty good, super tanky, and will mostly survive PD no problem. Its mine can still wipe a screen of fighter effectively. But I don't have enough normal version to test it out, might consider using the console to get it.

I'm not sure it's farmable yet other than through raiding. I can't remember if I added it to any variants at this point. The normal version replaces short range mines with long range kinetic missiles. Less interceptor defense, more shield damage. It hopefully is comparable in effectiveness.

I'm pretty sure both versions are sold in markets though not 100% on that. They would be pretty rare though.

[Raio_Verusia]

I've recently started playing AO again after a long hiatus and this time I decided to give some of the mods on the "Shouldn't break balance" list a shot along side it. I don't know if it's a mod conflict or, some other issue, but I've started seeing non (AO) tagged weapons popping up in my game for purchase, such as the Tachyon Lance and Gauss Cannon. They are not usable but they take up shop space.

I have no idea what could be causing it as nothing touches weapons from what I can see, other than Rotary and that is just art?

Modlist Attached.



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Morrokain]

I've recently started playing AO again after a long hiatus and this time I decided to give some of the mods on the "Shouldn't break balance" list a shot along side it. I don't know if it's a mod conflict or, some other issue, but I've started seeing non (AO) tagged weapons popping up in my game for purchase, such as the Tachyon Lance and Gauss Cannon. They are not usable but they take up shop space.

I have no idea what could be causing it as nothing touches weapons from what I can see, other than Rotary and that is just art?

Modlist Attached.

Thanks for the report and welcome to the forums! 

Sorry about seeing non-TC weapons. I doubt it's any of those mods doing it unless they are adding them back to factions' known list of weapons or something like that. This should be fixed in the next release of the mod (there is a highly unpolished version for test purposes available in the thread) and I have set up settings to toggle that sort of thing on and off for some campaign customization.

I hadn't fully fleshed out the override part of the code for 1.3.5 so I probably missed something.

[Morrokain]

Ok, DL is updating but it will be a few hours.

I didn't get to the falcon sprite changes so that will look weird.

Test Update:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6cxbrz5xcftwn8m/AAAaOPS8xMh6uIN5Pd1mwrbta?dl=1

Taking a small break but I will still check here for any feedback. Happy holidays everyone and be safe!

[basileus]

Happy Holidays, Morro!

[Albreo]

Happy Holidays and stay safe.

I have the crafts sheet for you.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BWd5Q_UxVQDnEGi3oHAsiBPTF0GVZG_W92BQYGIqEQU/edit?usp=sharing

[basileus]

I'm still finding some vanilla items in the stores in the latest beta.  The thing that caught my eye this time was the vanilla Heavy Annihilator Pod.  I can't be sure if there is an issue with your override script or there are just a few IDs missing from your database.

[Albreo]

I'm still finding some vanilla items in the stores in the latest beta.  The thing that caught my eye this time was the vanilla Heavy Annihilator Pod.  I can't be sure if there is an issue with your override script or there are just a few IDs missing from your database.

Is there an (AO) tag at the end of the weapon name?

If it's totally vanilla then you should read this post first: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13183.msg303948#msg303948

The change will only take effect on the new games though.

[Morrokain]

Thanks for the well wishes!

I'm looking into the reported issues with TC weapons today. There is one thing I can try and add to the logic itself, and I'll double check the ids.

Also, thanks for strike craft ranking sheet and comments. I think the evaluation system is neat and it's generally how I think about balancing each wing. I haven't look into it too deeply yet, but one thing that stands out is the rating comparison between the Walrus and Walrus (L). How does the anti-ship damage rating differ between the two? They have the exact same weapon set.

[Albreo]

Also, thanks for strike craft ranking sheet and comments. I think the evaluation system is neat and it's generally how I think about balancing each wing. I haven't look into it too deeply yet, but one thing that stands out is the rating comparison between the Walrus and Walrus (L). How does the anti-ship damage rating differ between the two? They have the exact same weapon set.

I don't know lol. I might adjust the normal version and forgot about the Ludic score. Fixed.

[Morrokain]

That happens to me all of the time, heh. I am especially bad at updating notes after multiple rounds of balancing where I make a bunch of changes all at once. Updating the notes each time I make a minor change becomes very tedious.

------------------------------------------

I'm still finding some vanilla items in the stores in the latest beta.  The thing that caught my eye this time was the vanilla Heavy Annihilator Pod.  I can't be sure if there is an issue with your override script or there are just a few IDs missing from your database.

I verified that the id you mentioned is in the id database, so it must be a script issue or some other factor.

I have made some improvements to the override script by adding all of the "this shouldn't appear anywhere in the campaign" tags that I am aware of and fixing a minor bug where the rare_bp tag wasn't being properly removed for some weapons.

Since weapons are the primary item reported, I have also set up additional logging to help determine whether or not these tags are applied correctly to the weapons upon the application's initial start up. This data will be in the logs with the assumption that the correct setting is applied. (It's intended to eventually default as set to false - otherwise it floods the logs with too much info while mod merging. For now, it's set to true in the DL iirc.)

The new logging is how I found out that some weapons were still being included as a rare blueprint even though they technically should still be considered a "system" and not spawn in markets. They also had the no_drop tag. Just checking off the boxes there. They seem to be applied as intended at a glance, but a deep dive may be necessary. I may have to take time to include all the mods and troubleshoot with a longer campaign to be sure. It may take some time.

As a side perk, I have tried to make any typos in the economy spreadsheets for the TC cause a CTD with some info on the id and I am intending to include a path to the individual spreadsheet in the future. This will help the QOL both for myself and for any other modders or users wanting to use these customization options when mod merging. It should also reduce potential nullpointers in any unforeseen edge cases.

*EDT* I've found that the beta test id has messed with the overall override functionality since it is hardcoded to the original mod id. I have updated the id to match the beta version. Sorry I missed it!

[Albreo]

*EDT* I've found that the beta test id has messed with the overall override functionality since it is hardcoded to the original mod id. I have updated the id to match the beta version. Sorry I missed it!

Is this related to missing faction icons from the blueprint packages? If not, I'm going to report that.

I got the previous version hull-mods from raids. 10% armor armored mount, ETC. I raided Persean only a few times.

[Morrokain]

Is this related to missing faction icons from the blueprint packages? If not, I'm going to report that.

I got the previous version hull-mods from raids. 10% armor armored mount, ETC. I raided Persean only a few times.

Probably not. Thanks for reporting it. I'll look into it.

Hullmods:

Thanks. Can you do me a favor and use console commands to see what hullmods the Persean League knows? If there is both one with (AO) and a vanilla one let me know. Then, if you could start a new game on that version and do the same thing right at the start? That would be very helpful in determining if it is something that is happening at the start of the game or something that is happening as the campaign progresses. The more I rule things out the easier it will be to find the bug if it is something really obscure or, for instance, a case that's hardcoded in vanilla like the Legion (XIV) in the theme generator.

Related to this, I'm currently working on a toggle-able "market scrubber" version of the code that will remove overridden vanilla items from non-faction-mod markets directly when a save is loaded. It will make the save take a lot longer to load, most likely, and shouldn't be left on each time, but it will help keep vanilla markets as intended when I miss things or when a campaign is started without overrides but then the player wants to use them, etc.

*EDIT*

I think I figured it out. The override logic removes the "base_bp" tag at application loadup (I confirmed that works by checking the logs), but it looks like that is being applied after the player faction and trader guilds already have added any "base_bp" blueprints added to their known lists. That's why they show up in markets on occassion.

The vanilla factions also probably have this occur, but unlike the above two they have their known lists edited later when a campaign is started or when a save is loaded and so I didn't notice. The logic to remove overridden weapons upon save load is done. I'll go ahead and update the DL with that work so current games can probably be fixed - at least as far as weapons go. I still need to do the other components.

Before I do that, I'll also add some additional logic to adjust known items within the player and mod factions to prevent this from being a factor in future market updates within the campaign rig.

*EDIT2*

Ok I confirmed the fix on those factions for ships and weapons (new game shouldn't be required now). The DL for the test version should have those changes and I've set the market adjustments setting to default to update markets each time a save is loaded just in case. If there are issues loading a save or it is taking a long time to load for some reason, you can disable the every-save update just by setting "checkSettingsOnSaveLoad":true, to "checkSettingsOnSaveLoad":false, in the settings file for the mod. ("data/config")

There are more nuanced settings for performance from there. I've placed comments to help explain. I still need to handle hullmods and updating more things in markets besides just weapons.

Beta Download