I see, thank you for answer. But this looks strange, for example when reatreating, the Onslaught has far better chance to survive than little fast carier. Because it is faster... Also about protection - escort comand here in the game works rather strange. As the escorted ship faces the main threat upfront while ecort ships are preventing enemies from flank attacks. None of this options are good for CV, so usually I make a group from them only and send on their own, as the ai uses the max distance in this case. According to the balance, I don't think it is bad when destroyer base carrier can kite cruiser. Or cruiser kite battelship it seems logical. Also it won't be able to kite multiple enemies, as it usually attack only one target at once. Maybe the solution is to reduce the boost for all ships to that 20 points.
For example we have a destroyer on the one side, running from slightly faster, but weaker destroyer and battleship on the other. So it will never run away as once he was tagged by enemy destroyer, the battleship will finish him.
About how am I trying to use the carriers. I never played this game with direct control of the ship. So I always rely on AI, Playing as a strategy. This boost makes my capital ships, especially battlecruiser ram the enemy, while my carriers are so far away that they never reach the battle in time. If the enemy is strong it is bad because they can't give adequate fire support on time. And as the combat map is not so big the delay with occuping enough territory can result in being cornered. And if the enemy is weak they are also useless as everithing is done before they arrive.
So in general with the speed boost armored close range units are much more efficient than shield users with high range. For example Pillager is outstanding in terms of combat balance. I have tried thousands of Odissey variants in simulations but none of them was as much effective. When we are talking about 1 on 1 it is ok, the long ranged unit has a chance. But in real it loose all advantage in speed and range while having more enemies. So all speed glass cannon designs have bad performance.
And I say again can't say anything about direct controll as I never use it.
Sorry for poor grammar and chaotic thoughts.
I love all the detail! It makes me take another pass at the design balance and that is always useful. Not saying anything is set in stone, but, responding to key points with my overall thoughts:
None of this options are good for CV, so usually I make a group from them only and send on their own, as the ai uses the max distance in this case. According to the balance, I don't think it is bad when destroyer base carrier can kite cruiser. Or cruiser kite battelship it seems logical. Also it won't be able to kite multiple enemies, as it usually attack only one target at once. Maybe the solution is to reduce the boost for all ships to that 20 points.
I get what you are saying here, definitely. I think this might be due to coming from vanilla combat where escorting larger ships with smaller carriers is a good idea. Here, it is not recommended due to the speed differential (where escorts are typically supposed to be faster than the escorted ship). Here, carriers
as a designation are your force projection using bombers/gunships, or the defense against those bombers/gunships/missiles by using interceptors/fighters. (Hybrids and specialists exist even within those roles)
So, you have to think of them as support ships that need babying either by you or the AI escorts you give them. They aren't escorts themselves unless you need their wings to support your allied ship directly in the moment. In that sense, it is situational, but overall they are the ones that should be escorted.
When mass selecting them and issuing a strike on a target they can effectively deal damage without taking any in return. As far as combat balance is concerned, this is a really big deal. They need to be weak when engaged (unless the ship is a hybrid) to make their strengths not feel overwhelming (remember practically everything has access to strike craft in this mod but dedicated carriers can send wave after wave in some situations)
If you think about vanilla, though- this still applies. If you try and escort a really fast capital with slow destroyers- same thing happens. Here, this is more common because the difference between types is more accentuated so it is easier to do.
my carriers are so far away that they never reach the battle in time
As in the ships themselves or their wings? The wings should. Maybe I have miscalculated range/speed of the wings if not. The carriers should ideally stay away and let their wings/missiles do their work. Their close range weapons are purely to defend against swarm/interdiction tactics from frigates that are maneuverable enough to catch them when isolated. (That's the idea, anyway)
For example we have a destroyer on the one side, running from slightly faster,
The slightly faster part is the issue for me. That requirement makes the fastest destroyer arguably the most attractive (unless poorly armed) to accommodate and stop all kiting ships of that hullsize (in principle) rather than promote combat tactics
within the hull size through designation variances which create a rock-paper-scissors effect. The actual complexity of the design comes from the fact that rock is so good against scissors that it transcends hull size (in that it can fight +1 hull size up when it counters the designation)
When I say "designation" btw, there is even more nuance there. A bomber carrier is different from a gunship carrier and is different from a missile heavy carrier, etc. And on that note, PD frigates are designed to beat bomber carriers, but not necessarily gunship carriers. It depends. Interceptor carriers beat bomber carriers, but not fighter carriers specializing in anti-interceptor fighters.
That's just a couple examples, but overall:
Range is everything in vanilla, and carriers have much larger range and sustainability than anything else except glass cannon range builds. In this mod, tactics are more important through countering what your enemy is bringing against you. The idea is that the variables are random enough that these tactics can never truly be predicted, but require in the moment evaluation during mid-battle.
So in general with the speed boost armored close range units are much more efficient than shield users with high range. For example Pillager is outstanding in terms of combat balance. I have tried thousands of Odissey variants in simulations but none of them was as much effective. When we are talking about 1 on 1 it is ok, the long ranged unit has a chance. But in real it loose all advantage in speed and range while having more enemies. So all speed glass cannon designs have bad performance.
Exactly! If armored close range units outnumber shielded long range units, there is an actual fight instead of a kiting to victory scenario where numbers don't even matter. Numbers should always matter here.
(Btw kiting glass cannons are
always super OP in the players hands and cause the game to be much easier for skilled pilots. The AI can't compare to a skilled pilot. So in that sense to increase the difficulty while keeping a larger variety of viable ships- this is intended- at least in part)
But!- that being said... remember that escort mentality I was talking about? Try equipping some speedier ships with flux free weapons and defense mods, then have
those escort those glass cannons. Suddenly I think you will find that they perform much better when they dart in- unleash hell- then safely retreat behind their escorts.
At the end of the day, imo, part of this comes down to not making this information apparent and available upfront. After this release, I will update the tactics manual with more detail while I fix the inevitable bugs that will crop up.
Usually, these guys put on either unstable injector or safety override which boosts speed massively, more intense than vanilla. I also advise you to put on an unstable injector yourself. Once tab, the ship will rotate to fight back unless you order them direct retreat.
This mod installed gives from 20/25 boost speed, while no flux gives 80, so it didn't help. Also the direction of the ship does not affect the speed, even they face the enemy the speed they go to the edge of the map stays the same. Usually they rotate facing the enemy because of the weapons installed. The ship without weapon will not rotate.
If unstable injector made the carriers able to kite, it would be a "must have" hullmod for them. It is already very attractive since the reduction in weapon range typically doesn't impact carriers much. If the reduced vulnerability to engines is still a thing (I think it is iirc, but not sure) then that is something that would affect them. Otherwise? The only thing competing with that hullmod would be better strike craft. (At a first glance)
*EDIT*
Forgot this one:
According to the balance, I don't think it is bad when destroyer base carrier can kite cruiser. Or cruiser kite battelship it seems logical.
It is definitely logical, I agree. The problem for me, is that then masses of cruiser-sized carriers annihilate battleships because they can infinitely kite without retribution of any kind- even in a fleet scenario. In the mod, if a commander knows what is going on they can actually chase down and kill the carriers piecemeal- or in the best case scenario all at once. Unless, that is, the carriers have escorts to provide a screen to the carriers and delay the assault push long enough for the strikes to weaken the battleship.
The high zero flux boost makes this possible. It allows for assault ships to reinforce an area of the battle map in a short amount of time and fill the gaps of the combat line. In vanilla, it makes it possible for the player to catch most ships depending upon size (since most AI ships use weapons- which in turn costs flux- so AI ships are constantly slowed down - even carriers since they engage fighters which negates the zero flux boost) but here it allows for diverse tactical combinations where assault ships are fast, tanky, and provide pressure. Strike vessels are fast until they strike with huge damage- then vulnerable without escorts. Carriers are slow, typically weak in defense, but can strike or provide anti-strike or assault support (so really all roles) from really, really far away.
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I have observed another strange thing weather this is intended. The number of fleets in an invasion seems to exceed the initial report prediction. I found that, at the destination of invasion that predict to have 3 fleets, it's turn out to be 7 fleets which more than double the number.
I'm able to loot 100 Spark Fighters from 3 big Remnant fleets I think the drop rate might be a bit silly here. Also, an evident how OP their fighter capacity is.
Might be fixed already since I've removed Nex config duplicates. Not 100% sure.
*EDIT*
Re: Spark drop rate: Thanks! That is a little extreme. Due to the strike-craft-heavy nature of the mod, they need access to a large amount of them. But the drop rate should definitely be reduced. I'll try and squeeze that in.
Also, my save file.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=107Yk0T2HYceKBou2cBcUotpMfxMdg94D
Mods
- Archean Order
- Nexerelin + LazyzLib
- Active Gates
- Resist Inspections
- SpeedUp
Quick Description: I have a lot of gates activated for convenience. One directly in Jahannam Where the high danger sector situated, this save will start off here. All my stuff is stored on Surganna planet in Karkara which also has a gate. Trantor, another settlement, also has a gate as well as multiple places in the core sector but not all of them.
Thanks! Won't be tonight, but I'll take a look to see if I can get additional insight for the release after this one! I appreciate the effort you have taken here!
You should check out Directorship Headquarters with 7 industries.
Already fixed for the release.