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Author Topic: Salvage & Recovery takes time  (Read 19047 times)

Morbo513

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2017, 07:42:13 PM »

Early-game, those 5 supplies or 5 fuel could really help you get by, so you should have to risk something to get them...

The reason those tiny salvage operations exist is to make the early game a little more forgiving. Making those small drops riskier is counter-productive.
And in my opinion, it's too forgiving - and that's not to mention the fact you can start restoring ships right off the bat too.


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As for the actual length of time it takes to salvage/restore this or that, it'd be variable. A minor debris field would be a second or two, while recovering an Onslaught would take maybe 40. To clarify my stance, I care a lot more about the restoration of ships taking time than salvaging unservicable ships/debris.

I'm all for more risk when doing salvage, but why should I have to sit there for an extra 40 seconds? Have some sort of text pop up and say "Oh no! Pirates were hiding nearby and now you have to fight or flee!" Don't make me just sit there for a minute and watch a progress bar. If there is going to be risk, make it a fun risk.
I'm all ears for alternatives. And no, it wouldn't be a dicerolled "Here this happened" event, it'd be an actual fleet interrupting you, or a system authority's patrol saying "That's not your ship to restore". Not that I'd be averse to that being included - but I'd prefer for AI fleets to go around salvaging too, and for you to stumble upon an actual pirate fleet/vessel who'd gone dark.

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It's rather absurd, this desire for games to be like one of those lab experiments where they have rats press a button to get heroin instantly; not all players want it to be all instant gratification; there should be waiting and challenge too.

Again, all for more challenge. No one here is asking for the game to get easier. It's just that no one wants the game to start forcing you to sit there with your thumb up your a$$ while nothing happens for 30 seconds. No fun, no risk, just boredom.
Your assertion that it'd be risk-free is baseless, especially with the last addition to this suggestion. Go hang about a few derelicts in and around populated systems for 30 (Accelerated) seconds at a time. Count how many scavenger fleets, Hegemony patrols, Pirate or hostile fleets cross paths with you, then you'll have some evidence to speak from. In either case, what is objectively incorrect is that nothing happens in that time - As I've said on multiple occasions; passive supply consumption, market events, bounties, mission timers, the safety of the space around you; With Nexerelin or features future versions of the game may borrow from it, these are amplified, not to mention that the factional landscape of the system can be impacted within such time.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:44:14 PM by Morbo513 »
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Warhunterpro

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2017, 08:22:09 PM »

just a small idea. but maybe give varying timers depending on the action? (pls note all time i provide is a rough estimate and not as a final number)
salvaging a debris field - 2-10seconds
salvaging an derelict ship - around 5 seconds
salvaging a equipment cache - 0-3 seconds
salvaging a research station - 5-15 seconds
salvaging a probe - 3-5 seconds
salvaging a mothership - 5-15 seconds
restoring a derelict ship - 0-10 seconds (based on size and how many D mods it has to get it back into working order. and if restoring multiple ships only take the longest time for all)
surveying a planet - 5-20 seconds (based on size and hazard rating)

when attacked during these periods of time you are missing the crew you sent. so before battle you can pick which ships will be crewed (similar screen to picking which ships you want to restore) so if you sent off 90% of your crew you probably won't be able to use most of your fleet.
and if you retreat during the time period or after you got engaged you will lose the crew you sent and all ships without crew will be considered mothballed for the retreat (or a portion of what you sent will be ejected into a pod near the location you were surveying/salvaging so you can reclaim some of them)

of course adding time for surveying may not be worth it until we get outposts out as there really is no real reason to give them extra time to do for an unfinished part of the game
and if we ever do make salvaging take time we should remove the can't salvage ship because enemy fleet is nearby. no more 1 ship fleets stopping us from salvaging our loot
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 08:25:56 PM by Warhunterpro »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2017, 08:27:31 PM »

For exploration, it's a risk to stop in a system anyway. It costs lots of supplies and fuel. The salvage is your reward for that. Adding additional risk/tedium to your reward just makes it less of a reward. If I stop in hyperspace to salvage derelicts, I'm already spending a lot of additional fuel by stoping. If I'm salvaging post battle, I've taken a risk by engaging in a battle in the first place. Point being, most of the time, in order to get salvage, you've already taken risks, adding more is just pointless. The main exception is if you slink around in an inhabited system trying to pick up the remains of other battles. I don't mind making patrols intervene in that sort of thing or having other hostile salvage fleets. Those are interesting mechanics. Adding time delays is not an interesting mechanic.

the fact you can start restoring ships right off the bat too.
Restoring ships costs 2-3 times what they are worth brand new, it's not an advantage at all, it's a huge penalty. It certainly doesn't make the game easier.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 06:13:53 AM by intrinsic_parity »
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RawCode

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2017, 12:13:25 AM »

just a small idea. but maybe give varying timers depending on the action? (pls note all time i provide is a rough estimate and not as a final number)
salvaging a debris field - 2-10seconds
salvaging an derelict ship - around 5 seconds
salvaging a equipment cache - 0-3 seconds
salvaging a research station - 5-15 seconds
salvaging a probe - 3-5 seconds
salvaging a mothership - 5-15 seconds
restoring a derelict ship - 0-10 seconds (based on size and how many D mods it has to get it back into working order. and if restoring multiple ships only take the longest time for all)
surveying a planet - 5-20 seconds (based on size and hazard rating)

...

if you think that *anyone* will be happy just staring into monitor for 20 seconds doing completely nothing
(probably first few times it will be somewhat funny, but only first few times):

A) you are very wrong
B) you need other type of game, there are lots of F2P and mobile\web "games" that does exactly that thing and allows to pay money to skip delay, there are lots of people who enjoy such kind of "fun" for variable reasons, i can't tell that such games are bad and desing is wrong, i simply not going to play such games.


current implementation of SS obviously is not timesink and there are no delays of any kind with exception to com sniffer, that:
1) 2 seconds
2) can be ignored without any issues
3) you actually need to do it only few times per entire game
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Morbo513

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2017, 08:23:44 AM »

For exploration, it's a risk to stop in a system anyway. It costs lots of supplies and fuel. The salvage is your reward for that. Adding additional risk/tedium to your reward just makes it less of a reward.
Yeah, derelicts in unpopulated far-flung systems are the only exception I'd have to this. But making it less rewarding is kinda the point, since the biggest incentive you have for going out to those systems is derelict analysis/running sensor packages/surveying particular planets, each of which have very hefty payoffs with little real risk, mainly just cost - and what risk there is is mitigated by the ease of vessel recovery, and how resilient the player fleet is due to this ability. Even if your fleet is wiped - With the starting cash (And tutorial fleet if you played it) you can open storage and immediately begin building a reserve of recovered ships and weapons, because lord knows there are a lot to be found in and around Jangala at the start.

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If I stop in hyperspace to salvage derelicts, I'm already spending a lot of additional fuel by stoping. If I'm salvaging post battle, I've taken a risk by engaging in a battle in the first place. Point being, most of the time, in order to get salvage, you've already taken risks, adding more is just pointless.
Fuel is an investment, not a risk - usually if you're travelling through hyperspace, you make sure you've more than enough to get to your destination and back. It's the beginning of a compelling choice though. "I've spotted a derelict <Favourite ship>, it'll cost me X of Y fuel to determine whether it's recoverable". X will usually be a tiny fraction of Y since derelicts usually have a minimal sensor profile, meaning you're rarely going far out of your way to get to it - and whether you are or aren't, the value of a recoverable ship is several orders of magnitude beyond that of the fuel (and supplies) spent.
Throw in "Oh, there's an <enemy/neutral> fleet already salvaging it. It's <size> so it'll take roughly Z days for them to complete it at most. I can get there within that timeframe, but I'll probably have to fight a battle to claim it and that's only if they haven't finished before I get there.". Or, "There's a Hegemony fleet patrolling around here, the derelict is outside Jangala. It's outside their sensor range right now, but by their course there's a risk of them catching me. It'll take me half a day to restore it, and they're within a quarter. If they catch me, they'll confiscate or scuttle the ship, give me a fine and I'll lose rep." Instantly much more risk/reward.

As for battles, there's two aspects; the ability to recover your own destroyed vessels, and those of the enemy. In the former case, this makes the losses you sustain in battle a lot less punishing. You risked that loss, yes, but the recovery its self is without risk - if it's recoverable at all, and there are many things you can do to insulate yourself from the possibility of a given ship being entirely lost.
 In the latter case, you're sometimes rewarded with the choice to salvage an enemy ship, but again this choice its self is without risk, it only demands a relatively small investment. For both cases, let's say you've just won this battle, but there's another enemy fleet up your backside, just they weren't close enough to join. Without a timer, you can recover any of those ships immediately and have them in your fleet. You can then play cat-and-mouse with the enemy fleet til they've been repaired and recovered some CR and they're then employable in combat provided you have weapons to equip them with (Which you're more than likely to).
With a timer, this changes. If you start recovering those vessels, the enemy fleet will doubtlessly catch up to you, but let's say for the sake of argument, maybe not necessarily before you've recovered them and they're spaceworthy. You're presented with 3 choices: Cut your losses and abandon those ships, maybe coming around after you've lost your pursuers; Attempt to salvage them before their arrival; Engage the enemy fleet. Which choice you make will depend on how valuable that derelict is to you.
This is much more compelling than the current state of things - Right now there's no reason not to recover every derelict you generate in battle, provided you meet the supply/h machinery and skill requirements of each. Crew is a non-factor since you can simply mothball them and drag them back to storage, or a market where you can hire crew.

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The main exception is if you slink around in an inhabited system trying to pick up the remains of other battles. I don't mind making patrols intervene in that sort of thing or having other hostile salvage fleets. Those are interesting mechanics. Adding time delays is not an interesting mechanic.
And this mechanic requires a time delay to be worth anything. If you can simply wait for a patrol for example to leave sensor range, then instantly salvage the derelict, nobody would get caught doing it except through negligence. If you have to take half a day to salvage it, that patrol might turn around and catch you in the act.


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Restoring ships costs 2-3 times what they are worth brand new, it's not an advantage at all, it's a huge penalty. It certainly doesn't make the game easier.


Note, I've been using "restore" and "recover" interchangeably, my bad. I meant recovering operational derelicts in the first place. Tutorial notwithstanding,  you can quickly build a strong fleet without doing anything to really earn it, just hovering about the battles between Hegemony and pirates, or going out into hyperspace to find a large number of drifting derelicts, or investing the fuel and supply costs to travel to a sector with a warning beacon and likely finding a heap of them there. The most powerful ships in my fleet (2 Onslaughts and a Mora) were found floating around in different systems with a hostile presence, and it didn't feel like I invested or risked anything significant to get them. Now I have a fleet an order of magnitude more powerful than what I had before, at negligible cost, potential or actual. This is the core issue.
 Recovery allows you to gain a ship you might not otherwise have access to through markets or any other means, and in the majority of cases, even having a D-mod ship is more valuable than what you invest to gain it in the first place. You pay a premium to restore it to pristine condition, but this is offset to a huge degree by the payoffs of analysis missions, each of which will probably net you a few new recovered ships by proxy. I don't have a problem with the restoration system myself (In fact I had a similar suggestion a few months back), but the conditions surrounding it.



if you think that *anyone* will be happy just staring into monitor for 20 seconds doing completely nothing
(probably first few times it will be somewhat funny, but only first few times):

A) you are very wrong
B) you need other type of game, there are lots of F2P and mobile\web "games" that does exactly that thing and allows to pay money to skip delay, there are lots of people who enjoy such kind of "fun" for variable reasons, i can't tell that such games are bad and desing is wrong, i simply not going to play such games.
Didn't get the memo letting us know you were speaking for everyone now. The enjoyment from such a change would come from what the timer enables and facilitates, not the timer its self. It's a means to an end, and the only alternative I've seen come up so far is dicerolled events per salvage/recovery operation/survey which would be worse by most accounts including my own. Equating the addition of a 5, 10, 20-second delay to these mobile games where every action takes literal days to complete is grabbing at straws and you know it.

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current implementation of SS obviously is not timesink and there are no delays of any kind with exception to com sniffer, that:
1) 2 seconds
2) can be ignored without any issues
3) you actually need to do it only few times per entire game
"The way it is" =/= "The way it could/"should" be". That's the nature of a suggestion.
1) 5 seconds, translating to 2/3 of an in-game day.
2) Same can be said of salvage/recovery/surveys
3) Ditto. In fact, you don't necessarily ever need to do any of these.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 09:07:22 AM by Morbo513 »
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Aratoop

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2017, 09:14:17 AM »

If your goal is to make salvaging a little more risky, I can see a small timer being added making things a bit harder, especially early game in the core worlds.

What I don't get is how surveying should take in-game time to do, since the only time you survey planets is in uninhabited systems. In uninhabited systems, you are incredibly unlikely to run into hostile fleets that pose a threat ([REDACTED] fleets are a minor annoyance to you if you're at the stage of surveying planets en-masse). Thus, adding a time delay to surveying planets wouldn't increase risk at all, and would only make it more bothersome. At the moment, seeing a multi-planet system makes me go "neat, surveying opportunities", but if there was a time to survey on each and every one, I'd probably not bother.

Also, going back to salvaging, I think it is important not just to bear in mind dancing-around-pirates-in-core-systems salvaging, but also late-game salvaging and especially salvaging large clusters of derelict ships or debris clusters when exploring systems; since in both these instances, there is never much risk at all to sulking around whilst salvaging (late game you're a big fleet anyhow, and in unexplored systems I've already mentioned), it would literally just be tedium to make you wait to salvage, especially in the latter case; and adding tedium for tedium's sake doesn't seem fun to me.
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Morbo513

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2017, 09:23:37 AM »

If your goal is to make salvaging a little more risky, I can see a small timer being added making things a bit harder, especially early game in the core worlds.

What I don't get is how surveying should take in-game time to do, since the only time you survey planets is in uninhabited systems. In uninhabited systems, you are incredibly unlikely to run into hostile fleets that pose a threat ([REDACTED] fleets are a minor annoyance to you if you're at the stage of surveying planets en-masse). Thus, adding a time delay to surveying planets wouldn't increase risk at all, and would only make it more bothersome. At the moment, seeing a multi-planet system makes me go "neat, surveying opportunities", but if there was a time to survey on each and every one, I'd probably not bother.

Also, going back to salvaging, I think it is important not just to bear in mind dancing-around-pirates-in-core-systems salvaging, but also late-game salvaging and especially salvaging large clusters of derelict ships or debris clusters when exploring systems; since in both these instances, there is never much risk at all to sulking around whilst salvaging (late game you're a big fleet anyhow, and in unexplored systems I've already mentioned), it would literally just be tedium to make you wait to salvage, especially in the latter case; and adding tedium for tedium's sake doesn't seem fun to me.
On surveys, yeah I've kinda dropped that one, cause as yourself and others rightfully pointed out, extending the time it takes to do so doesn't increase the associated risk. I should update the OP. Again though, it's a suggested means to an end - that end being changing the fact that surveys require little real investment or risk compared to the often massive returns.

I think a big part of the issue people have with the time-delay is that a lot of derelicts are found in these uninhabited sectors and are therefore never contested. I can understand that. The problem still remains that when you do find these clusters of derelicts, you've only invested a chunk of fuel and a handful of supplies to get there to potentially gain a few new ships and if not, a free re-supply. It's also the fact that finding these derelicts and debris fields is concurrent with planets to survey and mission objectives which can be each and any of these new actions. So sometimes not only can you salvage/recover a specific derelict, but you get paid for it too. The only suggestion I have there is spread these things out more amongst the unexplored systems, and don't use the warning beacons to indicate "Hey there's guaranteed to be some stuff in here, come take a look".
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 09:27:27 AM by Morbo513 »
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Aratoop

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2017, 09:29:15 AM »

I think I disagree with you about investing a small amount of fuel to find derelicts in systems, since unless you put skills into it recovered ships take a fair amount of supplies to repair and bring up to CR, which can be a risk when you're travelled fairly far into hyperspace away from the core sectors. Not to mention, there's the fuel cost actually getting to those far-flung destinations (and supply cost- it's not always possible to avoid hyperspace storms).
Although, at the same time, I do see your point about recovered ships potentially being a bit too powerful, but personally I don't think putting a time cost on salvaging will fix that.
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Morbo513

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Re: Salvaging & surveying takes time, and more in-depth surveying
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2017, 09:41:44 AM »

I think I disagree with you about investing a small amount of fuel to find derelicts in systems, since unless you put skills into it recovered ships take a fair amount of supplies to repair and bring up to CR, which can be a risk when you're travelled fairly far into hyperspace away from the core sectors. Not to mention, there's the fuel cost actually getting to those far-flung destinations (and supply cost- it's not always possible to avoid hyperspace storms).
Although, at the same time, I do see your point about recovered ships potentially being a bit too powerful, but personally I don't think putting a time cost on salvaging will fix that.
Again, it's entirely contextual. When I say there's no reason not to recover every derelict you come across, I'm talking mainly within the core systems. As for the outlying ones, it's a bit different - recovery of any vessel will decrease your fuel range and potentially slow down your fleet, so in addition to supply consumption and the investment into recovery, you do have to weigh up whether it's worth it so it's already a difficult enough choice. However, if you're short on supplies past the initial investment, you can immediately mothball that ship and bring it home if it's valuable enough to you, or make note of it and return at a later time. If you came across an <insert top-tier ship> though, I'm sure you'd go for it despite a 20 second wait on top of those factors. Regardless, there's at least an equal number of derelicts within those core systems than without, and all those concerns are removed or muted in those cases.
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Thaago

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Re: Salvage & Recovery takes time
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2017, 10:37:59 AM »

No.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Salvage & Recovery takes time
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2017, 02:28:36 PM »

The only time recovered ships matter is early game when they can give you a numerical advantage. Once you hit the fleet cap, you want to eventually replace all d ships. Recovering derelicts primarily makes the early game easier (which I imagine was the design intent) but it has decreasing significance as you progress. If you are flying around with an endgame fleet, or even midgame fleet of cruisers and destroyers, you're not picking up the random d-passenger liners and d-hounds you find lying around and you would probably think twice about even a decent frigate or destroyer. They simply waste a fleet slot. My point is, salvage is primarily a mechanic to make the early game easier. The game really needed that and it's doing its job well. I think a lot of veteran players forget how hard and unforgiving the game can actually be to a new player. This feels like arbitrarily making the game more difficult. Maybe for a hard mode or something it could be interesting, but I don't think it improves the game.
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PCCL

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Re: Salvage & Recovery takes time
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2017, 02:41:47 PM »

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The only time recovered ships matter is early game when they can give you a numerical advantage.

ok, I disagree there. Even in an endgame fleet, d-ships have the advantage of being cheaper to deploy. So even if you have a maxed out fleet, there's some value intrinsically in having d-ships around. Even if d-ships are completely useless in combat, in an end game fleet, you'll likely have enough money to restore most ships to peak condition, making ship salvage a way of getting rare ships that don't show up in markets (like a paragon for a heg player, or a legion for PLS pledge) or just another stream of replacement ships.


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This feels like arbitrarily making the game more difficult.

I also disagree here, The only time this system gets you into major trouble is if you're being chased by someone. In that scenario you're not allowed to salvage anyway. The only thing this does in that regard is letting you decide whether if it's worth risking it to proceed with the salvage operation despite the pursuer (maybe you're confident you can take them, maybe you'll be done by the time they get here, maybe those guys don't mean any harm).
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Morbo513

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Re: Salvage & Recovery takes time
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2017, 02:47:52 PM »

salvage is primarily a mechanic to make the early game easier. The game really needed that and it's doing its job well. 
In my opinion, it's doing that job too well. I love the "hobo phase" of any game (See: STALKER, Jagged Alliance, Fallout 1/2, even the Bethryos) that starts you out with *** nothing, more or less against the world, because it becomes extremely rewarding once you finally get out of it and gain some staying power in a fight, yet you still maintain your fragility. Right now, salvage trivialises this part of the game. I went from a Wolf and the salvage ship whose name I forget, to 18 Wolves, 2 Onslaughts, an Odyssey, a Mora, 2 Ventures, and a faction's worth of other salvaged cruisers, destroyers, frigates and utility vessels, and weapons, crew and supplies held in reserve in the space of five in-game years which, accounting for the distances you travel to outlying sectors, isn't very long. So even if this exceedingly powerful fleet of mine gets wiped out, I can come back with one that's hardly any less powerful. And for those ships, I didn't pay a penny; the cost of the crew, supplies, fuel and heavy machinery invested in gaining them is offset by salvaging irrecoverable derelicts and debris fields, and even further so by the huge payoffs of analysis missions and planetary surveys.
In the previous version, even with Nex and SS and other mods, you can spend double that time in the game using the same fleet you started off with and hitting a proverbial brick wall over and over, by scarcity of the good ships you want to spend your hard-earned cash on, and the fact you had to fight for every ship you gain without paying money.
 By all means, having it as an option would be nice since this seems to be pretty divisive (But probably wouldn't happen); if not, I can imagine Nexerelin adding this since it already does the same for mining, planetary invasions etc.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 03:08:58 PM by Morbo513 »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Salvage & Recovery takes time
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2017, 02:57:52 PM »

...being cheaper to deploy...
In endgame, this really doesn't matter, money is so easy to come by, the costs are really pretty insignificant, who cares that you save 15 supplies deploying a d hammerhead when you have a paragon and astral in your fleet.

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you'll likely have enough money to restore most ships to peak condition...making ship salvage a way of getting rare ships that don't show up in markets (like a paragon for a heg player, or a legion for PLS pledge) or just another stream of replacement ships.
This is a fair point, but I think that these are the rewards for getting into combat with large fleets, not some free ships, and you pay full price to restore, so I don't see why it needs to be changed, I'm more arguing with the OP than you.

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I also disagree here, The only time this system gets you into major trouble is if you're being chased by someone. In that scenario you're not allowed to salvage anyway. The only thing this does in that regard is letting you decide whether if it's worth risking it to proceed with the salvage operation despite the pursuer (maybe you're confident you can take them, maybe you'll be done by the time they get here, maybe those guys don't mean any harm).
Difficult was not the right word, uninteresting. Getting you into trouble was the point of the original suggestion. You're right in that it wouldn't matter unless you are in the immediate vicinity of an enemy.


I guess I would be happy if salvaging took time if there were hostile fleets or patrols around but not 'out in the wild'
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Kwbr

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Re: Salvage & Recovery takes time
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2017, 03:48:55 PM »

I guess I would be happy if salvaging took time if there were hostile fleets or patrols around but not 'out in the wild'

I think the problem with making it situational is that it'd tip you off to nearby fleets even if you cant see them, something the transponder already does when turned off.
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