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[Megas]

What is the advantage of fleet detachment (aside from doing multiple actions at a time like scouting or commodity trading)?  Let your ships run down enemy fleets they could not otherwise catch?  Okay, nice!  More loot for me!

If the enemy can do the same to me, then it probably is never safe to use big fleets until endgame when you can afford a fleet that can kill everything.

This is why I said it'd be best if you could attempt to disengage from an attack by a detachment regardless of fleet size. In what way is the rest of what you describe a bad thing, anyway? If you're focusing on non-combat but aren't using combat ships for escort, why wouldn't pirates and such take advantage of this?

Due to battle map size limitations, there is no way you can disengage after your fleet grow big enough, as long as the enemy wants to fight and can.  That is just not possible.  That is why the game forces normal battles when fleets are too big and the enemy wants to fight.

Currently, if the enemy is bigger but slower than you, you can run away.  If they can split so that the new faster fleet can catch you, then it is just like today when a scout catches you and sucks in all of his friends within half a screen away, and all fleets effectively become one super-sized fleet.  You only run away if you think you will lose.  Otherwise, you would just crush them all on the spot.

The point here is, let's say you're evenly matched more or less with the detachment, but the rest of the enemy fleet outguns you by a huge amount. Going with the option of attempting to wipe the detachment or force them into retreat will be a lot messier under the time pressure of doing so before their main fleet arrives. Still possible, but you'll have to put your own ships at greater risk in combat to be successful.

Extended battles would need to be changed to support this.  Currently, they all show up at once, up to battle map size.  The exception is you.  You may join in with allies already on the field, or allies may be deployed a few seconds behind you.  If you are forced to fight a normal battle, the delay is insignificant.

[Morbo513]

What is the advantage of fleet detachment (aside from doing multiple actions at a time like scouting or commodity trading)?  Let your ships run down enemy fleets they could not otherwise catch?  Okay, nice!  More loot for me!

You're missing the point. If your detachment is significantly weaker in both numbers and firepower than your main fleet, which by its limitations it would be, then winning that fight you otherwise wouldn't be able to initiate is less certain - especially if they decide to go full assault on you due to the time pressure. The enemy fleet in question may also be able to disengage easily, either through speed or having enough, or powerful enough ships to push through any attempts at blockading them before your main fleet arrives.

If the enemy can do the same to me, then it probably is never safe to use big fleets until endgame when you can afford a fleet that can kill everything.

It should never be entirely safe to use a primarily non-combat fleet without a significant escort. Your big fleet could also be entirely comprised of frigates and fast cruisers.

This is why I said it'd be best if you could attempt to disengage from an attack by a detachment regardless of fleet size. In what way is the rest of what you describe a bad thing, anyway? If you're focusing on non-combat but aren't using combat ships for escort, why wouldn't pirates and such take advantage of this?

Due to battle map size limitations, there is no way you can disengage after your fleet grow big enough, as long as the enemy wants to fight and can.  That is just not possible.  That is why the game forces normal battles when fleets are too big and the enemy wants to fight.

Is that an actual mechanical limitation, or an arbitrary one?

Currently, if the enemy is bigger but slower than you, you can run away.  If they can split so that the new faster fleet can catch you, then it is just like today when a scout catches you and sucks in all of his friends within half a screen away, and all fleets effectively become one super-sized fleet.  You only run away if you think you will lose.  Otherwise, you would just crush them all on the spot.

No, it's not - It would be if the main fleet were able to deploy at the start of the battle as normal, but that's exactly what wouldn't happen.

Extended battles would need to be changed to support this.  Currently, they all show up at once, up to battle map size.  The exception is you.  You may join in with allies already on the field, or allies may be deployed a few seconds behind you.  If you are forced to fight a normal battle, the delay is insignificant.

Again, the deployment of the main fleet in addition to the detachment would be time-delayed, depending on how far out the detachment flew to initiate the battle. It's not meant to be the same as an allied fleet joining you in a battle due to its proximity - this is something I'd also like to see changed.

[TaLaR]

You're missing the point. If your detachment is significantly weaker in both numbers and firepower than your main fleet, which by its limitations it would be, then winning that fight you otherwise wouldn't be able to initiate is less certain - especially if they decide to go full assault on you due to the time pressure.

As long as I get to pilot a ship in detachment this won't stop me (and otherwise I'll never use detachments, losing ships to autoresolve is not fun).

Player piloted Hyperion can survive against anything as long as it has CR. Phase frigates can last quite a while too. If enemy has not too many fighters even simply fast frigates like Tempest are ok.
Unless time to main fleet arrival will be extremely long (5 or more minutes), stalling (and getting quite a few kills in process) is not problem for well-piloted frigate.

And if they retreat in meantime - it's ok too. I'll catch them again (If I had enough speed to do it once, nothing stops more attempts), with less CR next time.

If the enemy can do the same to me, then it probably is never safe to use big fleets until endgame when you can afford a fleet that can kill everything.

It should never be entirely safe to use a primarily non-combat fleet without a significant escort. Your big fleet could also be entirely comprised of frigates and fast cruisers.

It won't be safe with escorts either. If enemy can cause CR drop (due to retreat) on my whole fleet, while paying CR only for small part of it's fleet, multiple times in a row - I'm doomed.

[Megas]

It should never be entirely safe to use a primarily non-combat fleet without a significant escort. Your big fleet could also be entirely comprised of frigates and fast cruisers.

Even if you have escorts, that will not matter if the enemy has an even bigger fleet.  That is why if you are strong enough, you just kill them.  If you want to run away, then the most likely reason is you are outgunned even with escorts.  (Although possible reason is you don't want to lock yourself out of a market for months because its too close to pirate base.)

[Morbo513]

As long as I get to pilot a ship in detachment this won't stop me (and otherwise I'll never use detachments, losing ships to autoresolve is not fun).

Oh yeah, to be clear the detachment wouldn't be a separate fleet as such. Your flagship can be part of the detachment if you like playing frigate as I do, otherwise you'd be able to watch the battle and give orders the same as when you haven't deployed your own ship. Allowing the player to take control of a detachment ship/transfer command before or during the battle, when they've not deployed their flagship as part of the detachment? That's another question

Player piloted Hyperion can survive against anything as long as it has CR. Phase frigates can last quite a while too. If enemy has not too many fighters even simply fast frigates like Tempest are ok.
Unless time to main fleet arrival will be extremely long (5 or more minutes), stalling (and getting quite a few kills in process) is not problem for well-piloted frigate.

The actual range in length of time for the reinforcements to arrive is highly debatable, which is why I haven't suggested a value. Too short or too long, and it's a moot point.

And if they retreat in meantime - it's ok too. I'll catch them again (If I had enough speed to do it once, nothing stops more attempts), with less CR next time.

If the enemy can do the same to me, then it probably is never safe to use big fleets until endgame when you can afford a fleet that can kill everything.

It should never be entirely safe to use a primarily non-combat fleet without a significant escort. Your big fleet could also be entirely comprised of frigates and fast cruisers.

It won't be safe with escorts either. If enemy can cause CR drop (due to retreat) on my whole fleet, while paying CR only for small part of it's fleet, multiple times in a row - I'm doomed.
[/quote]

Reminder, a suggested part of the suggested mechanic is that the detachment ships bleed their CR as they attempt to close with the target fleet. Maybe to a minimum value of where malfunctions don't happen, so as to give them the peak performance time malf-free. I think making the ability mutually exclusive with use of E-burn would also give the runners a window of escape.

[Deshara]

People who're worried about being caught by enemy fleets splitting a picket are missing something: you could split & send a picket to slow them down
Split your entire non-combatant fleet off and send them ahead to continue fleeing while you take a pair of ships to dive back into the picket & force them to stop to fight you off before going back to the main fleet

Which, in fact, would be a system-map layer representation of the current way that fleets of a certain size are unable to disengage and therefore not a new problem but a playable version of a system already in place

[Gothars]

People who're worried about being caught by enemy fleets splitting a pocket are missing something: you could split & send a picket to slow them down

But you forget that they could send a counter-picket to slow your picket down and keep it from intercepting their interceptor fleet. Ah, but I got an idea how you could slow down the counter-picket...

[Deshara]

People who're worried about being caught by enemy fleets splitting a pocket are missing something: you could split & send a picket to slow them down

But you forget that they could send a counter-picket to slow your picket down and keep it from intercepting their interceptor fleet. Ah, but I got an idea how you could slow down the counter-picket...

Lol implying that the slow attacking fleet would be in between the two quick strike pickets

[Morbo513]

People who're worried about being caught by enemy fleets splitting a pocket are missing something: you could split & send a picket to slow them down

But you forget that they could send a counter-picket to slow your picket down and keep it from intercepting their interceptor fleet. Ah, but I got an idea how you could slow down the counter-picket...

Lol implying that the slow attacking fleet would be in between the two quick strike pickets

Now this is where it gets mechanically difficult. As stated before, I don't see the picket fleet being a separate entity from your main fleet, just an "extension" of the main fleet's engagement range. If two fleets dispatch their pickets to one another, it'd essentially be both pickets fighting one another, until both sides' reinforcements arrive. Whoever dispatched their picket earliest would get their reinforcements latest (Rather, the fleet with the bigger "bubble" would wait longer to reinforce). The question is, how the game would handle a fleet engaging the main fleet that sent its picket out

[Deshara]

People who're worried about being caught by enemy fleets splitting a pocket are missing something: you could split & send a picket to slow them down

But you forget that they could send a counter-picket to slow your picket down and keep it from intercepting their interceptor fleet. Ah, but I got an idea how you could slow down the counter-picket...

Lol implying that the slow attacking fleet would be in between the two quick strike pickets

Now this is where it gets mechanically difficult. As stated before, I don't see the picket fleet being a separate entity from your main fleet, just an "extension" of the main fleet's engagement range. If two fleets dispatch their pickets to one another, it'd essentially be both pickets fighting one another, until both sides' reinforcements arrive. Whoever dispatched their picket earliest would get their reinforcements latest (Rather, the fleet with the bigger "bubble" would wait longer to reinforce). The question is, how the game would handle a fleet engaging the main fleet that sent its picket out

Same way. If the fleers' strike picket manages to drive off the chaser's fast attack picket then no major fleet engagement is forced

[zaimoni]

What is the advantage of fleet detachment (aside from doing multiple actions at a time like scouting or commodity trading)?  Let your ships run down enemy fleets they could not otherwise catch?  Okay, nice!  More loot for me!

Agreed.  Between the unilateral use of Sustained Burn and timing gymnastics with emergency burn, a savescummer i.e. "PC has empirical evidence there is a god on his side" can pretty much catch everything if his fleet has a rated maximum burn of nine, and almost everything at a rated maximum burn of eight.  (The target fleet needs a maximum burn rating three higher than the PC to reliably escape.)

So ... there is no point in this except for ironman play; the deploy screen is where you choose the fleet detachment for the task at hand.

[intrinsic_parity]

What is the advantage of fleet detachment (aside from doing multiple actions at a time like scouting or commodity trading)?  Let your ships run down enemy fleets they could not otherwise catch?  Okay, nice!  More loot for me!

Agreed.  Between the unilateral use of Sustained Burn and timing gymnastics with emergency burn, a savescummer i.e. "PC has empirical evidence there is a god on his side" can pretty much catch everything if his fleet has a rated maximum burn of nine, and almost everything at a rated maximum burn of eight.  (The target fleet needs a maximum burn rating three higher than the PC to reliably escape.)

So ... there is no point in this except for ironman play; the deploy screen is where you choose the fleet detachment for the task at hand.

I think the idea is that sustained burn and emergency burn no longer need to be balanced around large fleets being able to chase down other fleets. It's kind of an issue right now, I highly doubt sustained burn will stay the way it is. Sure emergency burn can still be cheesed occasionally, but if detachments are less supply intensive, then they will be used for engagements.

[zaimoni]

I think the idea is that sustained burn and emergency burn no longer need to be balanced around large fleets being able to chase down other fleets.

Right, these should be rebalanced to make that infeasible.

If Sustained Burn stays, it needs to be added to the AI repertoire for .9 (this is too radical a change for the .8x series).

[KEreversal]

Big fan of this idea; it would be nice if you could control your individual picket fleets as well with rts like controls.
But then; does it reach the level where you are microing your entire fleet ship by ship in hyperspace as if its the combat minigame itself?? it could get very extreme.

With intelligent design though; I think it could work very well.

[TrashMan]

I do not know if I want detachment if the enemy can do the same against me!  They have a big armada, I do not.  I can get away from their big fleet, but they split, their little faster fleet catches me, now I need to fight the whole armada anyway.  The latecomers may be placed a bit further back, but that does not matter in a prolonged battle.

Sounds good when you can do it, but not when they can do it too.

Detachments can have more use beyond combat if we can delegate menial tasks like item or ship transfers.

But you can use your own detachment to stall THEIR detachment, don't you get it?
You can use YOUR faster ships are a rearguard, to stall the enemy and prevent them from catching up to your main fleet.

And while your rearguard is delaying, your main fleet gets away.
Then you can pull your fast ships out, if you can. You might loose some, you might loose all of them if the enemy is really powerful, but you're unlikely to loose your main fleet.

The point is that it's balanced:
A detachments gives fleet A a chance to catch and force fleet B to fight.
But it also give fleet B the chance to escape a far larger fleet A.