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Author Topic: .8 feedback thread  (Read 104603 times)

PCCL

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #225 on: May 03, 2017, 12:17:05 PM »

Good to know.  I still think the core game should address these issues though because I'd like to see the gameplay balanced around it instead of doing something that feels a bit cheaty (like adding 100 lives in contra cheaty) but thanks for the info!

Welcome. That said though, I disagree that the core game should balance around these issues because... well... that's a matter of preference and I think it's against alex's vision for the game. Personally, my preferences are the direct opposite of yours and I'm using a "cheaty" solution. I have exp gain turned down to 0.3, tripled ship prices and pentapled ship maintenance (in fuel and supplies), among other things to slow down progress and make the game more difficult
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tinsoldier

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #226 on: May 03, 2017, 12:24:24 PM »

Good to know.  I still think the core game should address these issues though because I'd like to see the gameplay balanced around it instead of doing something that feels a bit cheaty (like adding 100 lives in contra cheaty) but thanks for the info!

Welcome. That said though, I disagree that the core game should balance around these issues because... well... that's a matter of preference and I think it's against alex's vision for the game. Personally, my preferences are the direct opposite of yours and I'm using a "cheaty" solution. I have exp gain turned down to 0.3, tripled ship prices and pentapled ship maintenance (in fuel and supplies), among other things to slow down progress and make the game more difficult

Honestly, making it harder doesn't sound bad to me if I could get more of the skills (eventually) or could invest in my ships/mods that better compensate for missed skills.
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Megas

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #227 on: May 03, 2017, 03:27:11 PM »

I finally found my first Paragon... after prying it from the cold, dead hands of a TT deserter.  Did not get the chance to play with it in the campaign yet.

Come to think of it, I have not recovered an Odyssey yet.  Not sure how well it compares with Legion.  Legion is fun to use when I do not need to control the Astral mad bomber.

At this point, I am well into endgame.  The only new thing left to do that I have not done yet is farm Remnants for their fighters (and kill a battlestation if I want to kill the golden goose).
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tinsoldier

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #228 on: May 03, 2017, 04:02:24 PM »

I finally found my first Paragon... after prying it from the cold, dead hands of a TT deserter.  Did not get the chance to play with it in the campaign yet.

Come to think of it, I have not recovered an Odyssey yet.  Not sure how well it compares with Legion.  Legion is fun to use when I do not need to control the Astral mad bomber.

At this point, I am well into endgame.  The only new thing left to do that I have not done yet is farm Remnants for their fighters (and kill a battlestation if I want to kill the golden goose).

Ironically, this is a good example for the argument I was making.  For me the odyssey works really well in AI hands because without enough combat oriented skills, it's hard to make the funky layout work (700 range autopulses is no bueno on a ship of that size and layout, i'll just hop in my Paragon which only costs 5 more OP and has built-in mega range extenders).  Personally I'm super annoyed that a skill decision I made forever ago means I can't effectively use one of my favorite ships  >:(

btw, super jealous you got a Paragon without TT commission.  I went the commission route and then snuck into a Hegemony base an gave'em 20 betas to make them friends again (300% rep gain).  No big deal but I was hoping to remain unaffiliated.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #229 on: May 03, 2017, 05:14:36 PM »

trivially moddable:
data/config/settings:
playermaxlevel: 40 <- change to 100000
xpgainmult: 1 <- change to 1000000

enjoy your invincible godliness

Good to know.  I still think the core game should address these issues though because I'd like to see the gameplay balanced around it instead of doing something that feels a bit cheaty (like adding 100 lives in contra cheaty) but thanks for the info!
Please don't do this as it could cause problems. Just set your level to 97? (you get two extra points at the start) and you will cap out at the same time you get your last point
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StarGibbon

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #230 on: May 03, 2017, 05:42:40 PM »



That applies to games where by making different choices you get a different experience (e.g. WoW, Diablo 3, Fallout).  The skills in this game do not create a different experience.  I do not think it is comparable.


I disagree. Skill choices in the game as it is can alter the playstyle in regard to what kind of combat you're seeking out (and what you try to avoid), what kind of missions you're better at, and how efficient it is to build your fleet one way or another. There is room for far more specialization, and I think the game would only benefit by providing it. Sandboxes tell stories, and stories about how youre good at everything are boring. In addition, there are upcoming features that will add more opportunity for specialization.

The only thing keeping the game from enforcing more specialization at present is how wide open the economy is, and how easy it is to make money.  If the economy tightens (as it should), it will no longer be cost efficient to build jack of all trades fleets that can do everything.

 Example: Running bounty missions is profitable if your fleet and skill selection makes your fleet efficient at combat (need to spend fewer supplies on ship deployment and repair costs, need to drag around fewer ships that dont contribute to combat effectiveness). Run a dedicated combat fleet with just enough fuel ships to get you where you need to go and back, and the skills to make that fleet effective at combat with minimal deployment, and bounty missions will always be insanely profitable.  Run a bloated fleet with a bunch of extra salvage and storage ships, skills that dont make you efficient at combat, and you can easily blow the entire mission reward with round trip travel, deployment, and maintenance costs.

The current economy trivializes ship acquisition, supply purchase, and fleet inefficiency, reducing overall game challenge.  If that ever changes, as I expect it has to to provide any kind of challenge, you will have to specialize more to get ahead.  If the game didnt provide a lot of opportunities for specialized playthroughs with different fleet compositions, I would have tired of it long ago. Otherwise the game would be just about pursuing the same superior ships over and over with each playthrough, and I would have tired of that rapidly.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 06:07:38 PM by StarGibbon »
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PCCL

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #231 on: May 03, 2017, 05:53:01 PM »

trivially moddable:
data/config/settings:
playermaxlevel: 40 <- change to 100000
xpgainmult: 1 <- change to 1000000

enjoy your invincible godliness

Good to know.  I still think the core game should address these issues though because I'd like to see the gameplay balanced around it instead of doing something that feels a bit cheaty (like adding 100 lives in contra cheaty) but thanks for the info!
Please don't do this as it could cause problems. Just set your level to 97? (you get two extra points at the start) and you will cap out at the same time you get your last point

ye of little faith
http://imgur.com/a/4GY9u

(don't mind the experience loss from the last bit, it has no real effect on gameplay and is only caused by the tutorial script)
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #232 on: May 03, 2017, 07:02:25 PM »

ye of little faith
http://imgur.com/a/4GY9u
(don't mind the experience loss from the last bit, it has no real effect on gameplay and is only caused by the tutorial script)
The issue is that it could cause issues down the line with overflow. If you want a maxed out character at the start, just download the Console Commands mod and add in some skill points instead of suggesting and doing something that could end up leading to more bugs for Alex to worry about!
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tinsoldier

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #233 on: May 03, 2017, 08:03:43 PM »

I disagree. Skill choices in the game as it is can alter the playstyle in regard to what kind of combat you're seeking out (and what you try to avoid), what kind of missions you're better at, and how efficient it is to build your fleet one way or another. There is room for far more specialization, and I think the game would only benefit by providing it. Sandboxes tell stories, and stories about how youre good at everything are boring. In addition, there are upcoming features that will add more opportunity for specialization.

The only thing keeping the game from enforcing more specialization at present is how wide open the economy is, and how easy it is to make money.  If the economy tightens (as it should), it will no longer be cost efficient to build jack of all trades fleets that can do everything.

 Example: Running bounty missions is profitable if your fleet and skill selection makes your fleet efficient at combat (need to spend fewer supplies on ship deployment and repair costs, need to drag around fewer ships that dont contribute to combat effectiveness). Run a dedicated combat fleet with just enough fuel ships to get you where you need to go and back, and the skills to make that fleet effective at combat with minimal deployment, and bounty missions will always be insanely profitable.  Run a bloated fleet with a bunch of extra salvage and storage ships, skills that dont make you efficient at combat, and you can easily blow the entire mission reward with round trip travel, deployment, and maintenance costs.

The current economy trivializes ship acquisition, supply purchase, and fleet inefficiency, reducing overall game challenge.  If that ever changes, as I expect it has to to provide any kind of challenge, you will have to specialize more to get ahead.  If the game didnt provide a lot of opportunities for specialized playthroughs with different fleet compositions, I would have tired of it long ago. Otherwise the game would be just about pursuing the same superior ships over and over with each playthrough, and I would have tired of that rapidly.

Some games have skill choices that alter your playstyle, this is not that game, at least not right now.  (Case in point, I'm a max industry + leadership/tech build and my fleet can demolish lvl 20 hero battlestations)

Your notion that the game will be so delicately balanced that your skill selection will determine if bounty missions are profitable or not...  Sound so unfun :-\  I really hope we don't end up there.  More power to you if you like it, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Besides that, your example seems a bit contradictory.  Right now, anyone and everyone can salvage most things and if you can't salvage something then you blow it up and salvage the debris instead. As such salvage ships are good for everyone.  Further more, if you follow PCCL's example and quintuple supply costs and/or follow your example of locking down the economy more (I think that's what you were implying.  Apologies in advance...), flying 4-20ly to the nearest bounty without storage and fuel ships and industry/leadership skills to reduce those costs will be harder and less efficient

Maybe what you were going for would be well served by having faction specific opportunities.  The games I think told really good stories and had good replayability involved aligning the player with different factions each play through.  Today you could go all Pirate, and that's pretty dope.  Go rob people blind.  Another play-through you could be the bounty hunter and chase down the pirates you used to play as in a previous life.  Be a TT shill or Hegemony officer another day.  Skills have nothing to do with it though.

I think the combat vs. industry dissonance will become worse once the economy is given more depth and there are outposts and all that jazz.

You had a number of other good points that deserve a thoughtful response but I'd rather go fly my Paragons around then keep writing.
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Pushover

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #234 on: May 03, 2017, 08:40:04 PM »

Does anyone else feel like smuggling has almost no penalty now? Maybe it's a function of players being unable to lower stability, but if the only punishments are a minor rep hit, and a larger one if caught through a scan (which you can totally full burn away from until the patrol loses track of you), then it seems like there is no reason not to purchase everything through the black market, and conduct trades that way.
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StarGibbon

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #235 on: May 03, 2017, 08:40:45 PM »



Your notion that the game will be so delicately balanced that your skill selection will determine if bounty missions are profitable or not...  Sound so unfun :-\  I really hope we don't end up there.  More power to you if you like it, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Your notion of a game that is so untuned as to provide little incentive for player experimentation, roleplay, and specialization, and hence little replay value sounds fun to me...for about 2 hours until I get the best ships and faceroll the AI, and then never play the game again. To each their own I guess.


Besides that, your example seems a bit contradictory.  Right now, anyone and everyone can salvage most things and if you can't salvage something then you blow it up and salvage the debris instead. As such salvage ships are good for everyone.  Further more, if you follow PCCL's example and quintuple supply costs and/or follow your example of locking down the economy more (I think that's what you were implying.  Apologies in advance...), flying 4-20ly to the nearest bounty without storage and fuel ships and industry/leadership skills to reduce those costs will be harder and less efficient.  

Everyone can do everything right now because the economy is so out of control it doesnt discourage it.  Doing a bounty mission with a dedicated combat fleet and high combat spec will make it much more profitable. I dont necessarily mean combat tree spec, but spec to make yourself efficient in combat. You can currently be efficient in combat by:  1) Combat tree spec (strong player ship requiring fewer support ships), 2) Leadership focus (strong carrier fleet requiring fewer combat ships altogether), 3) Industry focus allowing you to throw large amounts of trash ships at the enemy for reduced cost.  If you try to do that bounty with an unfocused skill selection that makes you inefficient in combat, and carry around a bunch of ships that don't contribute to your combat ability to boot, you will easily blow through that mission reward in round trip travel, deployment and repair costs. But there are so many other opportunities to make stupid amounts of money , the inefficiency doesn't hurt.  It doesn't hurt to lose ships, it doesn't hurt to waste gas and supplies, and there are no difficult choices to make in ship selection because ships are cheap ( free even), bank accounts are huge, and the game throws so much cash at you you dont have to make any good decisions.




Maybe what you were going for would be well served by having faction specific opportunities.  The games I think told really good stories and had good replayability involved aligning the player with different factions each play through.  Today you could go all Pirate, and that's pretty dope.  Go rob people blind.  Another play-through you could be the bounty hunter and chase down the pirates you used to play as in a previous life.  Be a TT shill or Hegemony officer another day.  Skills have nothing to do with it though.

We agree in principle here. Yes, this is the game that I ideally want. I want the game to be essentially like a 2d version of the egosoft X games (not Rebirth, we dont talk about that one). I think that's a lot to expect from a lone independent developer, so I'd be content with something closer to Sid Meiers Pirates in space, with modding to pick up the slack.

Those games dont feature a RPG-like skill tree at all, so I wouldnt miss it if it were gone--allowing the player to define specializations for themselves, as long as economic factors made it impractical to try to do everything at once. But if there IS going to be a branching skill tree, it should actually branch the player into different playstyles, or there's no point to it.

Where we disagree, is that I think the game has the basic framework to support this already, with a bit more fine tuning.  My playthroughs are all very specific along certain themes. Trader/junker pirate/Bounty Hunter/fleet admiral, etc. The nature of the combat encounters I seek out varies in each one, as a result of the logical playstyle. Combat is a part of each playthrough, but not each playthrough is about knocking out capital ship battle fleets in bounty missions. Some are about running from patrols and going dark to avoid scavengers, or carrying just enough military power mostly in the form of combat frieghters to survive redacted encounters while salvaging huge paydays.  I really look forward to the outpost building, and opportunities to make economic playthroughs more viable.



« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:19:53 PM by StarGibbon »
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TaLaR

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #236 on: May 03, 2017, 09:01:52 PM »

Right now, anyone and everyone can salvage most things and if you can't salvage something then you blow it up and salvage the debris instead. As such salvage ships are good for everyone.

Salvage bonus stacks only up to salvage difficulty. And you can salvage only 0% without skills. So salvage ships with bonuses are useless without specialization.
Kind of same for survey bonuses - they work, when you find 0% planet. But such planets are very rare and cheap to survey anyway.
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Megas

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #237 on: May 04, 2017, 05:51:37 AM »

Ironically, this is a good example for the argument I was making.  For me the odyssey works really well in AI hands because without enough combat oriented skills, it's hard to make the funky layout work (700 range autopulses is no bueno on a ship of that size and layout, i'll just hop in my Paragon which only costs 5 more OP and has built-in mega range extenders).  Personally I'm super annoyed that a skill decision I made forever ago means I can't effectively use one of my favorite ships  >:(
Given the fighter changes, I have a feeling Odyssey may work better as a beam boat, and use its fighter bay for kinetics.  I have a feeling that one fighter bay may not be enough.  I need to find one now to see what it can do.  Odyssey is the original battlecarrier, but it appears Legion may steal all of its thunder.

With much slower speeds and AI's penchant for kiting and turtling, shot range is king in 0.8.

Quote
btw, super jealous you got a Paragon without TT commission.  I went the commission route and then snuck into a Hegemony base an gave'em 20 betas to make them friends again (300% rep gain).  No big deal but I was hoping to remain unaffiliated.
Just whack some bounties and you will get one eventually.  That is how I found most of my ships.  The independent military markets are not reliable enough, or they sometimes offer the ships I want but I cannot afford them at the time, and then they are (sometimes) gone when I have cash to spare later.

I tried my old solo Paragon configuration, and despite Advanced Targeting Core, 1400 or so is not quite enough to attack ships that want to turtle or counter an enemy Paragon.  I had better results with beams and HVD.  With that much range, ships need to approach to attack and expose themselves more often.  Since I have not found Tachyon Lances yet, I need to rely on HIL and Ion Beams for beams, and HVDs for hard flux.  I would like use dual flak in universals, but I need the kinetics to support beams.  Also, it seems missile hit points have been lowered across the board so even PD lasers can suffice, and Paragon has the best shields in the game to block stuff.
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tinsoldier

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #238 on: May 04, 2017, 08:27:16 AM »

Your notion of a game that is so untuned as to provide little incentive for player experimentation, roleplay, and specialization, and hence little replay value sounds fun to me...for about 2 hours until I get the best ships and faceroll the AI, and then never play the game again. To each their own I guess.

No need to be snide, I bought this game 6 years ago to the day and have been playing it nonstop.  I would love to have the game be well tuned and to offer incentives, tremendous incentives, the best incentives anywhere and to have great replayability.  This is the .8 feedback thread, so I'm providing feedback on .8.  It seems to me that most of your feedback is based on a looking-forward basis, if Alex can tune the skills so it was actually worthwhile to replay the game to try out different things then great, you can have that and I'll still enjoy it.  That said, I'd rather see the replayability come via factions, storytelling and the player making choices rather than limitations that feel like penalties more than choices.  Once the economy is improved and I can build my own outposts/faction, I'd rather spend my time doing a mega playthrough on that then lots of smaller playthroughs doing niche things.  Kind of like X3 since you mention it.
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Kyuss11

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Re: .8 feedback thread
« Reply #239 on: May 04, 2017, 02:54:59 PM »

I love 0.8 and can't wait for next year when we get 0.9,lol just messing with you Alex....Hopefully the bulk of the game is in place and the future releases won't take as long.
What I think should be adjusted for 0.8.
1. Distress Call should not be something you have to look for or find.There is already enough missions that have those requirements already.Whether a Distress Call is a ambush or some one in a real need,the coordinates should show exact locations,after all the technology with the transponders game mechanic it doesn't make sense for a ship in dire need not to be able to ping a location to get help.
2. I have found that supplies can cripple the game if you get reduced to zero and are caught in the outer systems with no way of finding civilization to buy more.Let me explain the good and bad.
  : I like the fact that supplies are a thing for that it makes sense and you might lose crew or suffer ship damage.
  : I like the fact that you can recover supplies more easily with salvage operations.
  : I like the mechanic overall for a challenge when it comes to dealing with low cr and dodging battles.
  - I don't like that if you are exploring a outer system let's say that is 20 plus days away there isn't much hope for buying supplies at a base of operations.(I have not explored every system and I'm not saying there
    isn't any bases in the outer rim systems but all I ever find is planets and moons to survey)
    I understand that preparation is key and making sure you don't get burned by a corona and having to moth ball a ship or two but instead of dying right out with no way to recover maybe a small money loan of 10k
    from a faction with a large interest rate or smaller rate if your friendly.I say this because if you need 60 supplies to repair ships because of low cr and also need supplies to essentially be able to continue to play
    it would cost about 100 supplies at about 100 cr per.I get that there will probably be two responses to this issue.One will be you live and learn and that's just part of the game.But hopefully enough people would
    agree that a slight game mechanic added to prevent a start over.
3. Could there be Way Points added for laying a course.
4. I think that do missions for exploring that give you 50k or more might be a little to easy to get money.Or perhaps balance it better since some of the trading missions give you so little after you buy said product.
5. I love fighters but it seems that you can just roll with 4 or more carriers and win most fights,even the final battle.It's on you tube if you want to see.I get people want to play how they want to play but I think
    fighter are to op that's just my opinion.

Some ideas for the future Starsector mor for the modding community.
1. I would like to see the ability to make shipyards and be able to colonize outer planets so we can acquire supplies or repair ships,make trading lanes etc.
2. I would like to see reasons for commodities like metals and volitiles, perhaps when making a shipyard or colony on planet.
3. I would like to see a more fleshed out items list,for example instead of just metals there id iron,aluminum,gold etc.
4. I would like to see gems introduced to game for use in lasers or tools for industry and money.

Starsector is one of my favorite games and love the 0.8 a lot and can't wait for modders to imply some features that I mentioned.Nexerelin,starsector++ just to name a few.
These are just my opinoins and if I got anything wrong or maybe there is something that I missed to make my play through better,then all the advice is appreciated.Thanks.
 
 
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