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[Hypilein]

Just managed to get to lvl 40 first time. I'm loving the new patch. I'm especially impressed with the resource balance. Supplies and Fuel seem to be just right. However, there are a few minor things that I noticed could be improved.

1. If I find an old survey station/mining base/whatever early on and I don't have the necessary skills there is no way in the game, to note down where it was. I found two motherships early and i can't find them again. It would be nice to just add a "mark in log book" option to the contextual menus. It would tell you which system and what it is.

2. Similar to 1, if you get information about the whereabouts of something on a probe or surveyship (missed quite a few at the start, but I guess I'm responsible for reading the stuff) the information disappears after a while, so unless you act soon it will be lost. I know a year seems like long enough, but for some things I'd like to mark the information so it is saved for later.

3. Daggers and Wasps seem very expensive. For wasps, see the Talon Balance thread where all those interceptors get compared.

4. I think I could have known but I forgot that max lvl is 40. It's kind of annoying when you unlock a new tier too late and can't get its perks. Maybe a small indicator telling you that Officers are xlvl/20 and you are xlvl/40 would help.

5. Most of the fighter talents in leadership only help you when you are flying a carrier. Carriers just happen to be some of the most safe ships for the AI, so spending 12 or so points on those talents seems a bit of a waste. Maybe giving some fleetwide bonuses to fighters in leadership would be nice.

6. Love the new sensor interactions, especially when you spec for it in technology.

[Gothars]

I personally don't mind spending skill points on aptitudes, but I can see why people would dislike it.

Maybe it would feel better if it would unlock something only tangentially related to the skills it governs, for example new dialog options. Say someone with high leadership could convince patrol captains that it's not worth inspecting the fleet. Or someone with high technology could try to hack AIs while communication, someone with combat could threaten people etc.

[Megas]

I agree with RickyRio, except possibly skill respec.

To be more precise, if skills could be respec'ed, what I (and I suspect many others) would do is max out Surveying and Salvaging, strip mine all the paychecks (e.g., datapads) from the dungeon, then respec those skills away and get the skills I really want.

[mav]

Another way to "fix" aptitude points could be an entirely different kind of progression.

The following options are not meant to all be done together, but could be alternatives:

• Remove aptitude, let players spend points where they want
• Give points that can only be spent in specific categories on lvlup. e.g. an additional industry point every 4 levels
• Give experience and respective skill points for different categories:
   - combat / non-combat
   - personal (combat) / fleet (combat) / trade / survey
   - combat / trade / research
   - ...

[Deshara]

Maybe just remove aptitudes from easy mode for people they bother?

[CrashToDesktop]

To be more precise, if skills could be respec'ed, what I (and I suspect many others) would do is max out Surveying and Salvaging, strip mine all the paychecks (e.g., datapads) from the dungeon, then respec those skills away and get the skills I really want.

And this is why we don't balance for or around munchkins and min-maxers.

[FooF]

I don't want to get rid of the aptitude system. I think it's a good way to keep the player in-check early and force meaningful decisions. Honestly, I think I'm against the principle of the spending 6-12 points for "no gain" rather than for a gameplay reason. I just want more points to spend!

If we were going to add marginal/reasonable Aptitude bonuses (focus on "marginal") what would you even want? I agree with Gothars that a tangential bonus would be alright, as well.

Combat: +2% CR per level (player ship only)
Leadership: +5% Officer XP per level (fleet)
Tech: +10% Sensor range per level (fleet)
Industry: +3% Salvage per level  

Again, nothing substantial but minor boosts that add up to about a level 1 or 2 skill.

[Megas]

And this is why we don't balance for or around munchkins and min-maxers.

In that particular case, it is relatively obvious.  Players do not need to be hardcore munchkins to exploit that.  I guess that is why (from a gaming standpoint) Alex has not bothered with skill respec.  Milk early-game skills (Surveying) then dump them after they outlive their usefulness for more useful endgame skills (anything to do with combat) via respec.

[CrashToDesktop]

In that particular case, it is relatively obvious.  Players do not need to be hardcore munchkins to exploit that.  I guess that is why (from a gaming standpoint) Alex has not bothered with skill respec.  Milk early-game skills (Surveying) then dump them after they outlive their usefulness for more useful endgame skills (anything to do with combat) via respec.

You just don't balance around them, period.  If you do, you end up making stuff so bland and obvious that there's no point in doing anything but what the min-maxers do.

[Thaago]

In that particular case, it is relatively obvious.  Players do not need to be hardcore munchkins to exploit that.  I guess that is why (from a gaming standpoint) Alex has not bothered with skill respec.  Milk early-game skills (Surveying) then dump them after they outlive their usefulness for more useful endgame skills (anything to do with combat) via respec.

You just don't balance around them, period.  If you do, you end up making stuff so bland and obvious that there's no point in doing anything but what the min-maxers do.

I don't agree with this - min-maxers tend to find what is bland/tedious/unfun and do it, as long as it is effective. I would argue that one of the goals of game design is to eliminate anything that is bland/tedious/unfun but effective. So I say balance hard around min-maxers by seeing what they do and tweaking such that other players are not lured down the same path.

In this case, Megas pointed out the fundamental tradeoff between early game profit and late game power, and how if respeccing were allowed that game choice would no longer be there. Its not really fair of you to just dismiss what he is saying when its a really important design consideration.

[intrinsic_parity]

I will say that I reached lvl 40 very quickly and it kinda feels bad to not have any progression after that. A skill respec would keep the late game interesting. Maybe you continue to level up and can respec one skill for every level after lvl 40. Alternatively you could just  make it take longer to level up, but then that changes the balance of when you can get certain skills.

[SafariJohn]

@The Soldier

V is for vent, Z is for fighter control

[Megas]

There are people who will gladly sacrifice enhanced endgame power for powerful or easy early game start.  In some games, it makes sense.  In permadeath game, you may not live until endgame.  In PnP RPGs, the campaign may end before endgame levels.

With respec, people can have it all.  Exploit Surveying and Salvaging to get filthy rich fast, then respec them away for more useful skills after the non-renewable resources in the dungeon are sucked dry.  It is that saying "You can have your cake and eat it too."

[SCC]

If industry skills allowed for more options regarding outposts (when they get added) they would translate into endgame power - just not combat, but an economic one.
Pls Alex do strategy

[Alex]

If industry skills allowed for more options regarding outposts (when they get added) they would translate into endgame power - just not combat, but an economic one.

That's ultimately the idea, yes. I think I've said it in another thread, but the way surveying works is total placeholder, and I'm very much aware of the design issues it currently has (and which you all have picked up on). Just seemed the better option to have it in the game for the time being than remove it from the release entirely until it does do something more meaningful for you later on.