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[Toxcity]

While the vanilla numbers aren't perfect, these new numbers simply seem to be based on math alone without any in game testing done to see if they "feel" right.

The main problem is that ships don't seem to be taken into account. For example the combo of range, flux efficiency, and damage on energy weaponry allows the wolf to mop the floor with the Lasher 100% of the time. I'm sure that on paper the Heavy Blaster is on par with the Medium ballistic weaponry, but the ability to mount damaging flux efficient weaponry with good range on a wolf or tempest contradicts that point.

As for ballistics, the damage inflation is insane. In vanilla small ballistics were kept in a mostly >200 dps range, with vulcans and Dual Light MG being the only outliers. With these values, anything >200 dps is the outlier. This means that heavier ballistics have to have even more damage to prevent smalls from overshadowing them. This leads to stuff like some frigates (and destroyers) being unable to attack heavier ships since even the kinetic weapons will strip your armor pretty fast. Also, assault chainguns are unable to fire.

There is definitely some stuff I like (like light ACs having a higher per shot damage) but I disagree that this is more balanced than vanilla. There are certainly options that are 100% upgrades (besides OP) in vanilla, but rather that than this.

[Dark.Revenant]

These weapons were "balanced" in the vacuum of a spreadsheet instead of actual testing within the context of real gameplay.

[Tartiflette]

Perhaps if you spell out explicitly your metrics?

Remember Vacuum?

[xenoargh]

I'm not sure it's that one-sided atm, but it's certainly different and I think a lot of it is that there isn't the Flux tradeoff going on that we expect in Vanilla weapons.  I agree that this isn't perfect; I think the system isn't terrible now, at least, but the tuning needs further work.

It's tricky, to say the least, because the Damage / Flux vs. TTK vs. Range is basically where things break down. 

TTK is being used to balance raw damage, Damage / Flux is being used neutrally to determine relative efficiency.  I think that's best (to leave it neutral) but perhaps I need to penalize it for breaking 1:1, along with penalties for high TTK.  The problem with that is that then the LMGs and Vulcans, in particular, need to get nerfed quite a lot on their rates of fire or OP values or Flux-per-shot to balance out.  This is especially bad when LMGs cost more Flux per shot than they do damage; it pretty much negates them as PD choices.

Maybe I should get things pointing in that direction, though, so that the vast majority of weapons are closer to Vanilla's feel... and just let the chips fall where they may for these few PD weapons that are causing problems, rather than trying to preserve Vanilla's OP values.

[xenoargh]

The main problem is that ships don't seem to be taken into account.

That's next, and harder.  I think that can be done, too, it's just going to take a lot more work.

At any rate, I'll take another whack at getting the DPS / Flux values in line with Vanilla later tonight.  I understand that if we outrange opponents and can efficiently trade Flux, that's probably not working thematically.  It's just harder than you'd think to reconcile that problem with shorter-range weapons that are PD.  Maybe the right answer here is to simply give PD a big bonus so that they can remain pretty absurdly efficient, like they are in Vanilla? 

I feel like that's kind of cheating, though, because PD can be used offensively.

[Az the Squishy]

This is auh, a little broken...



Maybe...



All I had was the Tropedo pods, and the dual flak. Nothing else.

[Inventor Raccoon]

-snup-

You know, I'm not even going to ask why some of the numbers in that screenshot are as high as they are.

[xenoargh]

...because it was a totally different gameplay in a Total Conversion, maybeso?

Anyhow, I think I've come up with a way to get it there, after s'more thought.  If 1:1 damage / flux is taken as the ideal baseline, I think maybe using that ratio in conjunction with another range ratio change might get it roughly right.  I think that will still break LMGs and Vulcans but maybe it'll get it close.

[Midnight Kitsune]

...because it was a totally different gameplay in a Total Conversion, maybeso?

That broke the game due to unimaginative and broken zero stacking, which makes me think that this new "balance" mod is just vacuum 2.0

[Harmful Mechanic]

This is a little bit like reading the Voynich manuscript. I can't tell if the parts I think I understand make less sense than the ones I don't.

EDIT: Since I'm sure I'm going to get in trouble leaving it at that; big parts of this don't make sense to me. You've got the Mjolnir at 400dmg/shot to 170 flux/shot? That thing is a balance problem at 1:1 efficiency. No ammo-limited missiles, but insane cooldowns that can be abrogated by Fast Missile Racks to produce limitless death hoses?

I think a lot of these issues are really fundamental differences in the way you want Starsector to feel and play. And a lot of them might be good, within the context of a completely different game with different mechanics. In the context of Starsector, not having to make choices about flux use, and being able to murder the living hell out of everything without regard to damage type really spoils the game for me. I really like the tension of flux management, and you've taken that away. I really like paying close attention to damage type and keeping on top of fire control with that in mind, and you've taken a lot of that away. I like careful, judicious use of missiles and you've largely obviated that.

So, a lot of the reaction you're getting is about stuff like that; choices and experiences you're removing from the game that a lot of the vocal, involved players and modders really enjoy.

[Tartiflette]

40 Reapers in 10 seconds. Yes, 40 of them.


Also this:


Even by your logic this doesn't make any sense:

[xenoargh]

Actually, no, I'm not interested in Vacuum 2.0; it looks like SS 0.8 will basically have its major features built in.

If I can get it working well enough to generate consensus, great, we have something that works as a tool and we can have balanced gameplay across the mod-verse, rather than the big, largely-broken patchwork mess of buff/nerf.  

Weapons are just the easiest place to start.

I agree, I really shouldn't have left any of the missile / rocket stuff in (just experimental stuff there and yes, it's totally abuse-able) and will return that stuff to Vanilla values.

The Kinetics you're looking at reflect the issues with TTK; the TTK for a Heavy Needler is huge, therefore it pays a Flux premium.

[Az the Squishy]

Dauntlessly we shall go then. xD Good luck with whatever you're doing, it's interesting to see at the very least and Vaccum- which I tried out when I Wasn't modding -was fun as a concept to me. So... Hey, from the ashes of faliure come flowers of success.

[Thaago]

Question: What is your actual objective?

If the answer is "balanced gameplay across the mod-verse" then here is a test: when you run vanilla through whatever process you have, you should get minimal changes. Base starsector isn't perfect balance-wise, but I'd give it a solid A-.

[SCC]

Balancing without considering ships and combat is bad. To be honest, if EVERYTHING is absurdly efficient it doesn't matter what ship you're piloting, just number of weapons. You can murder everything with basically whatever you want since there are no comebacks - either you overload enemy/disable enemy first or enemy does. Ships stats and weapon stats feel extremely disjointed. Speaking of efficiency, it's all over the place. Why do mark IX and gauss cannon have the same dps? Why is hellbore firing a hammer-equivalent every 3 seconds? Why hephaestus has only 100 dps advantage over mauler? I like arbalest being decent at penetrating armour, but why is HAC basically better arbalest, then? Why autopulse laser has such absurd dps? ...Why the heck reaper typhoon shoots 4 reapers, but cyclone only 2? While I'm at that, why basically every missile is crap since either other weapons deal almost the same damage anyway or waiting time makes them irrelevant. I like regenerating missiles, but I don't like you are stuck with looong cooldown. I'd rather have them have rack + regenerating missiles at a slower rate. <- onslaught equivalent Also, what is Vacuum? It looks like fun.