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Author Topic: Skill Overhaul  (Read 97543 times)

Sy

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #210 on: December 20, 2016, 02:29:09 PM »

Perhaps naming-wise, it might make sense to also rename regular retreat as "Committed Retreat" or something like that.
i think having two different retreat options sounds like a pretty decent solution, and yeah, i think both the new and the current order should have a more descriptive name to highlight the difference.

a few naming suggestions:

for current: hasty, reckless, desperate, rapid, hurried, immediate
for new: tactical, guarded, vigilant, careful, cautious, orderly, calculated, wary

...it's actually surprisingly difficult to find terms that don't have an inherent positive/negative connotation and don't imply something else that goes beyond what the order actually does. like "guarded" describes the behavior rather well, but could be misunderstood as nearby allies covering the retreating ship. ._.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #211 on: December 20, 2016, 02:35:07 PM »

Someone who salvages is called a salvor, not a salvager. I demand this be changed or I'll make a whiny forums sig about it.

I dislike skills but you've made them better. Will give them a chance.

Level cap is good. The game has other stuff to do besides levelup.

The command points change is very good.

I don't understand the CM EW descriptions or the tomes worth of forum posts written them, but I don't object to them in principle. The CM should mention telemetry and triangulation, not 'drive tuning.' No need for technobabble if there are real life reasons.

There must be very clear graphical or UI indication in the combat and deployment screens to help me decide how many ships to deploy, so I don't have to get out a spreadsheet to figure out that deploying my buffalo will get me big EW CM bonuses.

Objectives- what is their status now? You get to deploy them to specific locations yourself now? What determines how many/where they are?
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Alex

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #212 on: December 20, 2016, 03:02:55 PM »

Man, coding AI is hard.

(It's just a lot of things to try to keep in mind at the same time; e.g. I didn't remember all the stuff that we've talked about relevant to how retreat prior to us just talking about it, but it was all stuff that I'd gone through. So sometimes I just remember the end result and am hesitant to move away from past conclusions because there are always reasons and it requires a solid re-immersion to properly reconsider. Which, if I come across as a bit stubborn about certain things like that, is why that would be.)


The whole Coordinated Maneuvers and Electronic Warfare change leaves me a bit dubious. Yes, it will definitely help against solo-ing, but i personally didn't considered solo-ing that much of an issue since the introduction of CR. I'm also a tad worried about it later on in the campaign, when the player finally reach the dreaded 25 ships limit.

Yeah, that's my bad on presenting it. It's really more about extending objective-effects into non-objective battles, sometimes, so that it's a smoother transition to those mechanics. And objectives already do make life harder solo, but this is more or less a slight nerf of their total effect.

Edit : I also realized that some of my worries were more or less answered in previous posts, that what i get for not reading the whole thread.

Wait, you didn't read all 13 pages before commenting? I am disappoint :)


Someone who salvages is called a salvor, not a salvager. I demand this be changed or I'll make a whiny forums sig about it.

Maybe, but only by the sort of person that would make a whiny forum sig about it :)

(Both appear to be valid, btw.)

Objectives- what is their status now? You get to deploy them to specific locations yourself now? What determines how many/where they are?

It's been this way for a while - some patches ago, objective sprites got a lot smaller, the text that comes up when you capture an objective point talks about deploying a Nav Buoy or whatever, and the graphic that's there pre-capture is transparent.

The idea is your fleet deploys these at suitable locations on the battlefield, those locations being suitable for <handwave technobabble> reasons.


The CM should mention telemetry and triangulation, not 'drive tuning.' No need for technobabble if there are real life reasons.

"Drive fields" are an existing in-fiction thing that's used to justify how a lot of things work (e.g. top speed, especially), and it happens to be a good fit here, so I think it's good to add to the body of text that talks about it. Taken together, all the instances of that will help make all the mechanics that talk about it "make sense".
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DarkerThanBlack

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #213 on: December 20, 2016, 03:03:57 PM »

Boy it's been a while since I've posted, but with the upcoming updates regarding Cartography and Skill Overhaul I'd thought I would contribute with a questions and a feedback note.

1) Regarding the skill ui, from the blog image I see that the Combat tree is fully decked out, can we add another skill via mods? Will there be a arrows to navigate right and left? Or will we need to change an existing skill in that tree? I know character points are limited and the options are more then overwhelming but considering that the cap be increased via mods will we be able to add new skills to a tree without removing exiting ones?

2) Weapon groups, can we get more of them :)? Some capital ships have a wide selection of weapons and for me at least 5 slots its usually not enough. What I like to do is keep slot 5 empty so I can switch to it from an auto firing slot and keep the slots weapon range overlay.
That way I can focus on maneuvers with the weapon ranges displayed and let the ai handle the firing, however this brings me down to 4 weapon slots and as on most ships 1 is always reserved for manual fire missiles and 1 for hardpoint weapons. The remaining 2 slots are not always enough to separate point defenses and other main weapons. Tho its probably not the best solution its the only workaround I know for having the weapon range displayed of a specific auto fire slot.

PS: Love the game, its been on a steady but worthwhile update track, thank you and good job :)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 03:05:42 PM by DarkerThanBlack »
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Mini S

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #214 on: December 21, 2016, 08:33:10 AM »

Hey since you guys talked about the AI retreat i would like to ask could the Lasher behave like a normal ship in stead of only following orders when explicitly told so. For instance the control and defend orders.

To address the ship losses from fleet actions could the markets have an option like order ships if only they had factories on the planet/space base.

Could we have a hullmod that removes the shield or the active system and add a few OP.(i could think of one or another ship to put these ones)
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FooF

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #215 on: December 21, 2016, 08:43:41 AM »

Also late to the party but extremely pleased with the skill revamp. I've read most of the thread and nodded my heads to a lot of concerns and/or responses to those concerns.

I see the level cap as a good thing as long as there isn't a significant best-way-to-play that emerges. Variety is absolutely needed in a game like this and while the completionist in me would like to see a high cap that lets me get most of the skills, I also understand that such a system would ultimately create a homogenized endgame experience. I would compare the level cap to something like Diablo III where by level 60 you have all the skills but you've really just begun the end game (however, D3 also lets you respec your skills at any time).

As for the respec, there was another game I played a long time ago, City of Heroes, where it was common practice to respec your entire character once you hit the level cap. By that time, you knew what you wanted but because of early decisions (which were perfectly justifiable at the time), you couldn't quite reach your full potential. So you respec'd the character to get the abilities and "slots" all lined up so that you could maximize your build: which may be completely different from the same guy next to you though he is playing the same character. In SS, a max-level respec may be appropriate, perhaps if earned. It's not so much that you get a re-do but rather a way to refine what you were already doing if you made a "mistake" early on. It's also hard to gauge what you want in the early game because you have no idea what ships you'll end up with in the end and often your fleet make-up can determine your play style.



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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #216 on: December 21, 2016, 09:08:50 AM »

Probably not applicable in Starsector, but in games where skills were gated, like Diablo 2, the skills you want may be locked behind level 30, and you might need to whack things with weapons or zap things with undeveloped skills until you got the skills you want.  Later, Diablo 2 tried to fix it by introducing synergies, so you can develop early skills that provided a boost to later skills.  (Unfortunately, due to power escalation, many characters had to max synergies and overspecialize to be effective against some things rather than be ineffective against everything.)  In one of the most recent versions, Diablo 2 added one-time respec per difficulty level.

I guess what I am trying to say is depending how the game plays, you may want to use skills you may not want for your final build, but you may need them now to live, and wish you can get rid of them when they outlive their usefulness.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #217 on: December 21, 2016, 09:16:34 AM »


Objectives- what is their status now? You get to deploy them to specific locations yourself now? What determines how many/where they are?

It's been this way for a while - some patches ago, objective sprites got a lot smaller, the text that comes up when you capture an objective point talks about deploying a Nav Buoy or whatever, and the graphic that's there pre-capture is transparent.

The idea is your fleet deploys these at suitable locations on the battlefield, those locations being suitable for <handwave technobabble> reasons.

Ah, I see. Forgot about that because changing the icon and the text message from "captured" to "deployed" doesn't really change the fact that you're still just capturing them. In terms of actual gameplay. It's a hill you fight over that is placed randomly by the game. Calling a spade a duck is pretty confusing.

The first issue with objectives is their gameplay, then the in-fiction. I suppose you've considered making them player deployable to a range of locations depending on ships, skills, etc? How about just eliminating them entirely? I don't know that they add all that much to the combat, now that you have these fleet skills and regenerating command points.

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FooF

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #218 on: December 21, 2016, 09:59:01 AM »

I guess what I am trying to say is depending how the game plays, you may want to use skills you may not want for your final build, but you may need them now to live, and wish you can get rid of them when they outlive their usefulness.

My post, more succinctly said. "Final builds" are fine, IMO, as long as there is a good quantity of viable final builds. What makes a build viable however is what the end game is. We still need something to work towards beyond min/maxing our fleet. There's a certain downside, however, to having your build all laid out and intentionally gimping yourself so that you don't waste points to get to your final build. I hated that about Diablo 2, whether it was skill points or character stat points. Synergies did help but one mis-click could lead to a re-roll. I don't think we'll have that in SS (because each point has significant effects) but it's something to watch out for.

P.S. I know I haven't been here since the beginning but this feels like the most extensive patch to date. It's almost a new game at this point. This excites me to no end. :)
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Alex

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #219 on: December 21, 2016, 11:37:44 AM »

1) Regarding the skill ui, from the blog image I see that the Combat tree is fully decked out, can we add another skill via mods? Will there be a arrows to navigate right and left? Or will we need to change an existing skill in that tree? I know character points are limited and the options are more then overwhelming but considering that the cap be increased via mods will we be able to add new skills to a tree without removing exiting ones?

Good question - adding more skills would break the UI (well, not break break, but it would look weird), but you can actually add more aptitudes, and it should let you scroll down.

2) Weapon groups, can we get more of them :)? Some capital ships have a wide selection of weapons and for me at least 5 slots its usually not enough. What I like to do is keep slot 5 empty so I can switch to it from an auto firing slot and keep the slots weapon range overlay.
That way I can focus on maneuvers with the weapon ranges displayed and let the ai handle the firing, however this brings me down to 4 weapon slots and as on most ships 1 is always reserved for manual fire missiles and 1 for hardpoint weapons. The remaining 2 slots are not always enough to separate point defenses and other main weapons. Tho its probably not the best solution its the only workaround I know for having the weapon range displayed of a specific auto fire slot.

Honestly, probably not, though I get what you're saying. I might get around to adding one more but it's kind of a pain, so it being non-essential, priority is always going to be very low.

PS: Love the game, its been on a steady but worthwhile update track, thank you and good job :)

Thank you!


Hey since you guys talked about the AI retreat i would like to ask could the Lasher behave like a normal ship in stead of only following orders when explicitly told so. For instance the control and defend orders.

That's a bug, fixed for next release. Although, wait - iirc, the issue affect only ships with movement systems (i.e. Wolf, Cerberus, etc). Hmm - not sure what you mean, then.

Could we have a hullmod that removes the shield or the active system and add a few OP.(i could think of one or another ship to put these ones)

Hullmods that modify OP get weird because there's all sorts of edge cases about what to do when you remove them. Could be interesting, though, but I don't want to just add hullmods for the heck of it - that's a good way to end up with way too many hullmods.


As for the respec, there was another game I played a long time ago, City of Heroes, where it was common practice to respec your entire character once you hit the level cap. By that time, you knew what you wanted but because of early decisions (which were perfectly justifiable at the time), you couldn't quite reach your full potential. So you respec'd the character to get the abilities and "slots" all lined up so that you could maximize your build: which may be completely different from the same guy next to you though he is playing the same character. In SS, a max-level respec may be appropriate, perhaps if earned. It's not so much that you get a re-do but rather a way to refine what you were already doing if you made a "mistake" early on. It's also hard to gauge what you want in the early game because you have no idea what ships you'll end up with in the end and often your fleet make-up can determine your play style.

Right, yeah. I feel like that're more relevant for an MMO, but not exactly opposed to respecs in Starsector, it just has to work right as far as the details, and I don't want to come up with some kind of system only to have to redo it. Let's see what the endgame is like first!

I guess what I am trying to say is depending how the game plays, you may want to use skills you may not want for your final build, but you may need them now to live, and wish you can get rid of them when they outlive their usefulness.

Yeah, I get that. Being careful to design skills so that their bonuses - especially the level 3 ones - remain useful throughout and aren't just a "phase of the game" thing. Also, it helps that you can get any skill to level 3 very quickly, so you don't have to make do with skills you don't want but can get, which oftentimes is what leeads to those kinds of choices. Still, not an argument against respecs in general.



I suppose you've considered making them player deployable to a range of locations depending on ships, skills, etc? How about just eliminating them entirely? I don't know that they add all that much to the combat, now that you have these fleet skills and regenerating command points.

About half the point of objectives is to help spread larger battles out a bit. It gets too crowded otherwise.


P.S. I know I haven't been here since the beginning but this feels like the most extensive patch to date. It's almost a new game at this point. This excites me to no end. :)

:D :D :D
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Mini S

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #220 on: December 21, 2016, 12:01:13 PM »

Alex what i meen is some ships are not automatically assigned to the control and defend like the Lasher

As it is possible to see the Wolfs get assigned to the defend and the Lashers dont


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Alex

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #221 on: December 21, 2016, 12:06:08 PM »

You know what, I think I just had it backwards - it was a while ago. So, yeah, this should be fixed.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #222 on: December 21, 2016, 01:53:32 PM »

@ Alex: I doubt it would be a problem for Starsector since leveling is a bit speedy and with the new skills, player would wait until level 5 to max one skill.  Maybe even faster than today, where I need to wait until character level is about 10 and Technology is at 7 (for Augmented Engines, ITU, and more OP) to notice a power-up spike.
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Voyager I

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #223 on: December 21, 2016, 03:05:38 PM »

Another suggestion:  what are your thoughts on giving Sabot SRMs the Salamander treatment?  They work more like a pressure weapon than a Harpoon-style finisher, and it often feels terrible to use them for their intended purpose because you're trading finite ammunition for a renewable resource.  This might become even more of an issue when the coming patch tones down overall lethality, since ships will once again be more likely to survive a single overload, at which point a ship that relied on Sabots to break through shields might no longer have the tools necessary to finish the job.

They might need a bit of a rebalance to support the change, sure, but I'd be far more willing to put them on ships and it would probably be particularly helpful with some of the intended designs we've seen from the Medium Ballistic/Small Missile Destroyer platforms.  Harpoons + Kinetic weapons works as a loadout because Harpoons (even prior to being overtuned in 7.0) often kill the target outright and trade for permanent damage.  Even if the victim survives, they're likely in deep hull with much of their armor entirely stripped such that kinetic weapons present a lethal threat.  The inverse isn't true; a ship that relies on Sabots to punch through shields for its Explosive weapons is liable to be left impotent if their target survives the initial overload, assuming they can even punch through at all given how good the AI is at just flickering shields and taking the Sabot to the chin.
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Megas

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Re: Skill Overhaul
« Reply #224 on: December 21, 2016, 03:17:14 PM »

Sabots are iffy.  AI uses them as anti-shield weapon, but they are more effective as an unblockable missile that hurts any defense (armor less so, but 375 damage may still be a big chunk of armor).  I use Sabots as a kill missile much like Harpoons, if I do not need twitch timing to exploit brief openings, because PD cannot stop it once it explodes into stage two.

That said, I would like all missiles to regenerate.  After all, fighters will effectively be missiles by another name.
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