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Author Topic: Fighter Rework and Missiles.  (Read 32438 times)

korda

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2016, 10:32:08 PM »

IMHO powerful missiles shouldn't regenerate - I like how they feel as powerful tool to quickly finish of (or even simply kill) one or two enemy ships. And AI behaves as you would hope - waiting for best occasion to launch their missiles too. They seem really nice... At least in early game.

The problems start when bigger ships come into play, often armed to teeth with PD, with fighters flying around to soak some hits and dozen of other ships to help with their PD. Your own ships spamming all missiles on the slightest sight of enemy frigate are not helpful too (for some reason AI controlled Venture likes to just launch all harpoons whenever something shows up). Suddenly missiles stop being an asset you can use to exploit enemy mistakes and start to be little UP.

I think that missile count could be partially dependent on ship size... So the big ships with small missile mounts get some extra hits for late game fights and small ones can't exploit missile buff to win every fight.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2016, 12:14:48 AM »

I think that missile count could be partially dependent on ship size... So the big ships with small missile mounts get some extra hits for late game fights and small ones can't exploit missile buff to win every fight.

To have an easy rule it could be: Frigate never reload their missiles, Destroyer reload all the ammo once, Cruiser twice, and Capital four times. Given how frigates and Destroyers rarely have anything but small missiles, and Cruisers rarely have large missiles, it wouldn't be that big an issue to balance properly.
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korda

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2016, 12:32:59 AM »

I think that missile count could be partially dependent on ship size... So the big ships with small missile mounts get some extra hits for late game fights and small ones can't exploit missile buff to win every fight.

To have an easy rule it could be: Frigate never reload their missiles, Destroyer reload all the ammo once, Cruiser twice, and Capital four times. Given how frigates and Destroyers rarely have anything but small missiles, and Cruisers rarely have large missiles, it wouldn't be that big an issue to balance properly.

I'm afraid this could scale bit too well with hull mods or skill bonuses - if those would be multiplicative instead of additive. Perhaps hull mod could simply give one more reload (if reloading would be mechanic to use here anyway). However it would have to be cheaper on bigger ships - since one more reload when you have 4 already doesn't seem that much.
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borgrel

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2016, 06:10:27 AM »

To have an easy rule it could be: Frigate never reload their missiles, Destroyer reload all the ammo once, Cruiser twice, and Capital four times. Given how frigates and Destroyers rarely have anything but small missiles, and Cruisers rarely have large missiles, it wouldn't be that big an issue to balance properly.

seems like a reasonable idea
(mayorate will have to change the cruiser with 2 large missiles but thats not a big deal)

honestly i dont know what the big issue is:
the sunder mod hull (fracture) has 2 med missile and 2 med universal (and 1 large energy)
i mounted it up with 4x voidspear MRM pod, linked fire mode, expanded missile racks, ECCM and hardened subsystems (and wave pulse though autopulse would work just as well)
at least 1/2 the time i still had missiles left by end of peak time, even when using energy based missiles so u can let lose soon as u've positioned an enemy ship so it cant avoid and dont need to waste time punching through shields toooo.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2016, 08:59:32 AM »

I'm afraid this could scale bit too well with hull mods or skill bonuses - if those would be multiplicative instead of additive. Perhaps hull mod could simply give one more reload (if reloading would be mechanic to use here anyway). However it would have to be cheaper on bigger ships - since one more reload when you have 4 already doesn't seem that much.
Frankly, with such system the hullmod could be completely removed.

Also all the missiles would probably get very different ammo stocks since they would already naturally get more efficient on larger ships. One more reload when you only have two or three shots per reload would be very much worth it. And if it the hullmod stays, It would also make sense that it is more useful on smaller ships if the missiles get more useful on bigger ships. You spend OP to get the benefit of the class above...

Also when I say reloads, I mean not instant so that you can launch 15 Harpoons in 15s, but not too long either so that when facing a ship with empty racks, you don't have to gamble that you will kill it before it randomly reload its missiles. Something around 10-20s feels about right, but anything longer than a minute will result in random missile attacks when you thought everyone had expended their stocks.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 09:05:37 AM by Tartiflette »
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Cik

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2016, 06:26:26 PM »

i don't think there is anything wrong with missiles

if they are underpowered in the late game, it is only because dual flak exists

dual flak is too effective and tilts the perception of every weapon it counteracts

PD is way too effective in the modern game. put dual flak on your average mid tech ship and it can stymie several ships with missiles shooting at it with ridiculous effectiveness. as a rule, the only ship that should be able to do that are dedicated PD escorts, and they basically do not exist anymore because any ship can be PD self-sufficient with a tiny amount of hardpoints dedicated to it.

in conclusion nerf PD and missiles are fine thx
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2016, 11:52:12 PM »

   I completely agree with you here, if anything I feel missiles are overpowered since they can instantly kill something. But I can also see the point of people saying that OP spent on missiles is comparably less effective than spent on better normal weapons since they have so few shots, and a lot of misses.

   Dual Flak is one big part of the problem indeed, with the immunity to missiles it provides as long as you aren't overloaded. And it's presence was probably one of the reasons missiles got so dangerous, to make the few shots that slips through hurt.

   The other reason is the habit of the AI to empty their racks of missiles onto the first thing that overload nearby (even after the AI changes), usually the lone first few frigates, leaving them empty once the big guys come up (And as I complained multiple times, make the game less tactical since venting is no longer an option but a death sentence during the early battle). I believe "missile regen solving all issues" everyone seems to be exited with is less about giving missile weapons more shots, and more about lowering their fire-rate so that there are still missiles left in the heat of the battle.

   But the idea of supplementary reloads along the ship's sizes might not be a straight buff, but rather a way to level the usability of missiles across the game: Early game 6 harpoons on a Lashers are well and good to take out most enemies. And end-game an hypothetical 12 shots Hurricane with slightly lower fire rate on a Capital would be great too. The problem is that 3 harpoons on a large ship late game is wasted OP.

   With the idea of hulls having reloads, those weapons would get only 3 to 5 salvos for missiles and 1-2 shots for torpedoes (obviously with exceptions for support missiles, unguided and all that stuff, but you get the idea) and the ship size determine the endurance of the weapon. A hurricane would get 3 ammo, and 4 delayed reloads on a Capital, and that would be fine. A Harpoon would then get 12 shots too, which suddenly for 5 OP isn't so bad at all.

A few examples of what I feel the changes could be with most recent missiles changes reverted to what they were in 0.65:

Harpoons : 3/6/9/12
Harpoon Pod : 8/16/24/32
Sabots : 4/8/12/16
Typhoon : 2/4/6/8
Rocket Pod : 30/60/90/120
Pilum (with very old stats) : 12/24/36/48
Hurricane : 3/6/9/12
Swarmer: 32/64/96/128

« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 12:09:29 AM by Tartiflette »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2016, 09:33:47 AM »

In practice, CR handles that for you.  See my Missile Fun mod, for instance; if you wait for too many reloads you will run out of CR.

To avoid those reloads being painfully slow, I space them out by a minute (two minutes tops, for torpedoes), and generally decreased the power of missiles to make them less capable of insta-killing ships you don't like.  I find that it achieves a similar effect to size-based reload quotas without requiring a new mechanic.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2016, 10:34:02 AM »

But at one minute delay you're well into "random missile suddenly available" territory. Where you have absolutely no way of knowing if the enemy is going to be able to hit you if you vent or not, unless you saw exactly when it fired his shots.

With limited clips (hardly a "new" mechanic) you could have a different look for the missile launcher when they are completely expended: darker like when a weapon is disabled but without the sparkles. And the delay between clips is short enough that unless you did saw the last clip being fired, you know you are probably in danger if you vent or lower your shield.
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Wyvern

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2016, 10:50:45 AM »

But at one minute delay you're well into "random missile suddenly available" territory.
I don't see that as a problem.  If an enemy has a missile launcher, then you should have to consider the notion that it might have a missile.

Still, this objection could perhaps be addressed by adding, say, an extra five second delay?  Make it so that a missile launcher, upon going from zero to one shots, is disabled for five seconds, so there's at least some time to react to the "new" threat.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Dark.Revenant

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2016, 10:53:12 AM »

That could be solved by having the missiles fade in some time before the reload is completed, rather than adding extra delay.
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603bill

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2016, 07:18:48 PM »

I think adding those munitions ships into the game would be good for reloading missiles.  That way there would be no wondering weather a ship has missiles loaded or not, because you would be able to see the munitions drones docking with the ship getting missiles.  It would also give the player an incentive to bring a frigate or two in their end game fleet, because they would be able to sneak around the front line and destroy the enemies munitions ship quickly, and then maybe even go back to the friendly munitions ship and reload its own missiles.
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Linnis

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2016, 10:12:11 PM »

I think adding those munitions ships into the game would be good for reloading missiles. 

Or give more missle hardpoints that would take extra OP and armor to equip
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Megas

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2016, 11:18:06 AM »

   Dual Flak is one big part of the problem indeed, with the immunity to missiles it provides as long as you aren't overloaded. And it's presence was probably one of the reasons missiles got so dangerous, to make the few shots that slips through hurt.
This is why Onslaught is so strong, and with max skills and most dissipation bonuses, it can fire all of its PD (I use seven dual flak and six Vulcans) constantly no problem even at max flux.  It might not be able to fire Mjolnir, Maulers, and TPCs, but the flux efficient PD can stop nearly any PD threat with ease regardless of flux level.

The other reason is the habit of the AI to empty their racks of missiles onto the first thing that overload nearby (even after the AI changes), usually the lone first few frigates, leaving them empty once the big guys come up (And as I complained multiple times, make the game less tactical since venting is no longer an option but a death sentence during the early battle). I believe "missile regen solving all issues" everyone seems to be exited with is less about giving missile weapons more shots, and more about lowering their fire-rate so that there are still missiles left in the heat of the battle.
Besides being outnumbered, this is one other reason why I solo fleets.  As soon as one of my ships get their flux high, the incoming Harpoon storm from about a dozen or so enemy ships finish it off.  Harpoons from ships with high Missile Specialization are mostly unstoppable.  When I solo fleets, this only happens when my ship gets high flux, and depending on my ship, may be able to defend against it completely or exploit it to my advantage somehow.
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Morrokain

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Re: Fighter Rework and Missiles.
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2016, 01:21:53 PM »

The flaw of this is that when two opponents have both used all of their missiles, they're no longer an option to break the stalemate.  Instead, it can end up being rather unfun as the two ships slowly plink away at each other until one eventually runs out of CR or takes enough damage to die.  Alternative mechanics like Burn Drive or having fleet-scale combat alleviate this, but the problem eventually comes around on the macro scale as well - when both fleets have used up all of their missiles, then it's a different kind of battle.

You cannot solve this by adding regeneration to missiles.

Have you tried it? Not to keep harping on it, but I have - and regenerating missiles do exactly the opposite of keeping a stalemate going. It means that if either side or both sides fail to break a stalemate with missiles, they can try again later instead of being locked in the no-missiles-on-either-side stalemate you describe.

Also the idea that missiles are simply "push button, ship dies" is ridiculous. The windows in which missiles are guaranteed kills worthy of their OP cost and limited ammo are extremely minute and get even more so as more ships get added to the fight. It also takes significant boosts from skills to make that possible reliably (even within those small windows) and that's a skill issue.

Also, regenerating missiles doesn't eliminate that (player) skill required - just because your missiles will eventually come back doesn't mean a bad launch by one side doesn't represent as significant disadvantage. It's still a huge chunk of threat gone for a significant amount of time.

Look at this way: Jousting for missile position is a significant combat high. It's skillful, it's impacted by everything from ship design to in-combat maneuvering, which ships are escorting which others, it requires timing - it's one of the most intricate parts of combat. And it happens once. Possibly doing nothing. And then none of this happens again. Your PD choices, that careful maneuvering - it's gone. The whole rest of the combat you are fighting with ships that are only half as interesting. Regeneration (and of course that requires a complete rebalance of missiles - they need it anyway) means one of the best parts of combat can happen multiple times and you get to fight with the whole ship longer instead of only until you launch your missiles.

The fact that one of the best ways to use missiles is to never use them because that hurts the AI more than empty racks is to me a clear sign that something is very, very wrong with missiles.

This is a really good analogy of how missiles can be a burst damage skill-based mechanic. They are balanced this way in my mod and are very satisfying to use. Regeneration is actually a crucial aspect to this balance both in terms of how the A.I uses them (muuch more skillfully when not conserving) and how limited or powerful the player can feel when using them.

In my mod, missiles usually come in clips of 4-6. They are one of the only weapons that generate flux (siege or strike-type ballistic and energy weapons do too) and they have a fast firing rate. They regenerate far more slowly, so burst dps is around 1500 but sustained is around 30. It takes roughly 30 seconds in combat to reload an entire clip, but you can trickle out individual missiles too to exert pressure on enemy defenses as needed (The ai usually does this after an initial blitz style strike to attempt to overwhelm you and then keep pressure on you by trickling out afterward for example).

So missiles become the ace-in-the-hole weapon that really dictates the flow of combat alongside similar-styled strike weapons. This makes missiles powerful almost universally in combat and ships of course are usually limited on missile slots for this reason. They are far more valuable, as is their related combat skills. This is balanced out by the individual ship's flux cap and dissipation (for reference, two small launchers firing all missiles in their respective clips maxes out the typical combat frigate's flux bar) that sometimes makes a less damaging, but constant and non flux-generating assault weapon more attractive to a ship load-out (an assault weapon typically deals around 75dps, so no burst but flux-free and double the sustained dps of a missile weapon).

Point defense, in turn, becomes crucial to defending ships from being focused on and picked off. A ship without pd or at least an interceptor escort (they are much smaller, faster and agile in my mod and great for a pd screen) is pretty easily overwhelmed and the ai is actually pretty efficient at choosing appropriate targets.

Honestly I was pretty skeptical that it would prove anything other than one-dimensional and quickly boring when I first played around with it, but as it turns out, the excitement from "missile jousting" (great analogy!) is pretty great and I've had a lot of fun testing it so far! This is, of course, a biased opinion as I'm developing this mod around my own personal playstyle and a more "star wars" type military doctrine in combat. But, I figured I'd share my findings since the question of actual working models was posed and I happen to have one  ;)

For anyone curious and to answer the question ahead of time, my mod is currently unavailable for public download and scheduled for a working download shortly-ish after the fighter changes are released in the next scheduled update (no clue when that is). Those changes are absolutely required to get a proper fighter/ship ratio in fleet spawning without going to the trouble of making custom scripts for everything. I've gotten pretty close in tests, but too many things still fail to hold up and kind of ruin the experience I'm going for. Hopefully soon though! Can't even begin to explain how excited I am for the next update!  ;D  ;D  ;D
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