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Author Topic: Shuttles  (Read 4508 times)

Deshara

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Shuttles
« on: October 12, 2016, 05:39:29 PM »

Why don't shuttles reduce the supply or fuel costs or burn speed of bigger ships? That's what they're for, aren't they? So that ships that are too big to efficiently maneuver for docking mid-flight can just have a shuttle ferry what they need.
I mean, I wouldn't imagine a fleet of onslaughts and one atlas would benefit from the battleships having to doc with the Atlas to top up while burning between stars.
And, the more I think about it the more I think a shuttle handling the mid-flight logistics of a large ship would irl act as a natural tug boost.
Like, imagine every ship has the same top burn speed (because the alternative doesn't make sense when top speeds are set by safety protocols, handwaves not withstanding), but the Venture, renowned for slowing fleets down, just has an awkward docking profile. I mean, look at it. It's engines are large and widely set apart and it looks like it's docking port is between them. It would be hard to dock with it mid-flight, and if you were piloting anything bigger than a shuttle and your docking port isn't on the front of your ship (and it wouldn't be), the only way to dock would be to rotate your ship, putting the front and back ends of your ship in the way of the engines, either inducing self-interfering drag at best or having to shut them down to prevent damage at best.
Which would make sense , since the venture very much is a fleet ship, heavy on missiles and wielding an auto factory that would sensibly take up all of the prime docking space in the middle of the ship, making the designers figure screw it, just put the docking port between the engines, ruining it's burn efficiency without a shuttle, so they can go all-out on making it an upper-midline missile boat.

So my thought: give all ships a 'logistical deficiency' stat, which is the problems the ship has running in a fleet and in practice is a representative of what bonus the ship would get from having a logistical support (shuttle) ship in the fleet. So for gross, awkward ships with bad burn rate the shuttle would dedicate itself to doing all it's docking duties itself so the Venture would never need to fall below max throttle to resupply or refuel, effectively boosting it's burn speed, or if a ship is way bigger or way more high tech than its cargo hold is capable of handling making any combat engagement cost a lot more cr than most, the shuttle could lend it it's cargo hold, allowing the crew of its client ship to choose what the shuttle holds in its stores so that they aren't limited by their ships own cargo space, reducing the CR cost of an engagement.
And, for ships that really aren't special enough to warrant the use of a shuttle, they could just get a supply use a month bonus that is near or just over the cost of running a shuttle, effectively negating the need to match every ship with a shuttle but also simultaneously eating the cost of the shuttles after a battle in which their reasons to be are lost, discouraging a player from scuttling their mercury the moment their venture is lost, but also still costing fuel to transport between systems giving a player a reason to consider scrapping their logistical train for parts if their need to have it has been lost and they're a long way from home.
Oh and the fact that the bonus a ship gets is the same regardless of the shuttle servicing it means it's up to the player what kind of support they want. None of this "defenseless or nothing" you get with the tug. If you need a shuttle for your atlas you could get one with triple pd tac lasers to keep strike fighters away, if the need comes up. If you have a Venture armed to provide prolonged long range support for a fighter screen you could make its shuttle a dual-reaper kite_a wingman, "Just in case." And if your shuttle is to cheapen the expense of fielding a xiv onslaught line-breaker, it's shuttle could be an unarmed mudskipper, because you can't be bothered.
Thoughts?
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Shuttles
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 08:30:50 PM »

If shuttles would function strictly as a bonus for large and cumbersome ships then I'm all for it, at least that would give players some incentive to actually use them, ever. I'm not sure if they should increase burn speed though, unless you want to remove tugs from the game entirely.

On the other hand, that 'logistical deficiency' stat sounds a bit iffy, regardless of if the science behind it makes sense or not. As far as I know vanilla SS still uses a fixed fleet size (25?), so further decreasing that by forcing the player to have a certain amount of shuttles may not be the best idea.
I guess it could work if it applied to battleships only.
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Gothars

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Re: Shuttles
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 02:16:41 AM »

The lore implication is that every ship above frigate size already has a shuttle hangar and shuttles, probably for just the task you described, DTD. Thats what converted flight decks are made from, and were the command shuttle comes from, I guess.
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Serenitis

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Re: Shuttles
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2016, 02:38:01 AM »

It would be nice if shuttles gave some sort of utility beyond a pittance of storage space, so they are not just decorative fluff used temporarily then ignored forever.

But the only thing I can think of which doesn't impinge on the role of another ship is that of boarding.
Like how several versions ago the player had to carry around several shuttles if they wanted to capture ships, just so the inevitable spiteself-destruct didn't eat anything valuable.
Maybe shuttles could be designated as 'boarding ships' and have everything in that class have some intrinsic boost to boarding ops., or access to a hullmod designed solely for use in this role (*cough* Valkyrie *cough*)?

But then that runs into the hard cap fleet limit, which maybe isn't a terrible thing.  ???
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Megas

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Re: Shuttles
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2016, 04:28:26 AM »

Switch from Logistics to hard ship cap killed shuttles.  They are obsolete for their intended purpose, but they are useful for intentional fleet wipe and respawn into Wayfarer/Centurion/Lasher shenanigans.
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borgrel

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Re: Shuttles
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2016, 05:00:07 AM »

i have a problem with tugs: its difficult to keep track of which tug helps which ship and why ur speed is not what u expect it to be (as well as issues with slow updates to burn level when fiddling with fleet management (seems like u need to leave the station and fly for a day for tugs assignments to rebalance?)

since all large ships (cruisers, capitals) should have a shuttle bay (according to the lore) how about reflecting that on the fleet management screen:
* all large ships should have a little box in the top right corner that either a shuttle or tug can be placed in
* no more confusion about which ship the tug is linked to, reduced fuel cost when the tug is not necessary as it will dock with the larger ship when u capture a new ship and ur speed drops for example.
* no more shuttles and tugs using up ship limit space (unless u dont have a ship for them to dock at)
* new interesting modding options (like hull mod for converting shuttle bay into cargo storage or into a missile bay, or extra sensors) (or even a new ship class that can fit into the shuttle bay)
* new fleet rescue options (when u run out of fuel or supplies in an uninhabited system or hyperspace) .... launch shuttle fleet (and then u can control the shuttles and the big ships just sit there uninhabited until u return or they get captured by passing pirates)
* new options for officer survival when ship is destroyed (shuttle launches and tries to flee)
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Aeson

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Re: Shuttles
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2016, 03:50:50 PM »

Quote
since all large ships (cruisers, capitals) should have a shuttle bay (according to the lore) how about reflecting that on the fleet management screen:
I can't speak for any of the developers, but I suspect that the Hermes, Mercury, and Kite are rather larger than the shuttles which the larger ship types carry in the shuttle bays that can be converted to flight decks. The Ox probably is as well. After all, all of these are hyperjump-capable and the three shuttles have crew, fuel, and cargo capacities comparable to those of frigates; the sizes of the sprites also suggest that the shuttles and the tug are comparable in size to the smaller frigates, though how consistently-scaled the sprites are is open to question.

I expect that the shuttle bays that the larger ship types have are for shuttles more in line with things the size of the Shuttle Pod-class command shuttle used to transfer player control from one ship to another.
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Deshara

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Re: Shuttles
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2016, 04:42:02 PM »

Quote
since all large ships (cruisers, capitals) should have a shuttle bay (according to the lore) how about reflecting that on the fleet management screen:
I can't speak for any of the developers, but I suspect that the Hermes, Mercury, and Kite are rather larger than the shuttles which the larger ship types carry in the shuttle bays that can be converted to flight decks. The Ox probably is as well. After all, all of these are hyperjump-capable and the three shuttles have crew, fuel, and cargo capacities comparable to those of frigates; the sizes of the sprites also suggest that the shuttles and the tug are comparable in size to the smaller frigates, though how consistently-scaled the sprites are is open to question.

I expect that the shuttle bays that the larger ship types have are for shuttles more in line with things the size of the Shuttle Pod-class command shuttle used to transfer player control from one ship to another.

This. Plus, I don't imagine that builtin shuttles that don't have burn drives are shielded for use in interstellar space, especially at high speeds. My head canon is that if the Corona of a star is enough to cook an onslaught, then it's internal shuttles without any shield or armor wouldn't dream of leaving the safety of its mothership while operating around the star of Sindria, and therefore only actually gets used terrestrially or to dock with orbitally stationary structures that are equipped with a traffic control tower to ensure the safety of equipment that can't survive an impact with space pebbles, let alone an actual adteroid
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I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then