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Author Topic: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?  (Read 14566 times)

Requal

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Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« on: September 08, 2016, 09:49:00 PM »

I know there are different pilots for hire for other ships but I really wonder if you can set your own AI to aggresive when you automate the player ship.
Cause in most cases my ship just dances around another ship while being shot at  going in reverse when he had 10% left and I had full hitpoints.
He actually destroyed my ship when all my AI had to do was engage and attack to win within seconds.Hence

Hence if there is a way to set own AI to aggresive or something similar/
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Dri

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 10:16:34 PM »

I'm not gonna bother to ask why you let the autopilot control your own ship, but at this time there is no way to alter the AI for your own character when set to autopilot.
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Thaago

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2016, 02:32:03 PM »

Quote
Cause in most cases my ship just dances around another ship while being shot at  going in reverse when he had 10% left and I had full hitpoints.

Can you give us a loadout for the playership and an opponent in the simulator where this happens? Because this sounds like a bug and those are much easier to track down for Alex when he can reproduce them.

As to the autopilot, I do not think you can change it. I agree with you in general about the AI not pressing home its attacks - I try to only use aggressive officers, though finding them can be difficult, and that mostly fixes it.
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Cik

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2016, 03:40:16 PM »

Quote
Cause in most cases my ship just dances around another ship while being shot at  going in reverse when he had 10% left and I had full hitpoints.

Can you give us a loadout for the playership and an opponent in the simulator where this happens? Because this sounds like a bug and those are much easier to track down for Alex when he can reproduce them.

As to the autopilot, I do not think you can change it. I agree with you in general about the AI not pressing home its attacks - I try to only use aggressive officers, though finding them can be difficult, and that mostly fixes it.

i've noticed this too. it seems reticent to engage, especially in pursuits where it has a clear advantage.
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Dri

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2016, 04:36:02 PM »

I've brought up (a few others have too) the AI failing to close into weapon range to press the attack several times, but Alex denies it time and time again.

EDIT: At this point the only plausible explanation for this behavior is two very slow ships with the same (or very close) max speed—one fleeing and one trying to chase it down—but due to them moving so slow and at the same speed it seems like they aren't moving at all.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 04:54:04 PM by Dri »
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Requal

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2016, 02:43:50 PM »

That exactly looks like it.
I dont see why Alex denies it when people keep mentioning (complain) about it.
This just doesn't make sense.

Should I just record my gameplay to show him or might he actually know this issue but deny it because he doesnt want to investigate and change stuff because it might be to much work...
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Requal

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2016, 02:48:29 PM »

Why I think is that the weapon range of the enemy is higher than that of my ship.
Hence why my ship tries to be out of his weapon range but tries to get close itself to get into his own weapon range hence making it look like an endless dance.
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Alex

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2016, 03:02:32 PM »

Part of the problem is that whenever "this issue" comes up, it's usually a collection of unrelated issues that may look similar, so when someone chimes in saying they have the "same issue", based on what they're saying, it often looks like it is not the same thing. It's also extremely hard to tell based on purely a description, as there could almost always be a legitimate reason for the AI to do what it's being described as doing, depending on the exact circumstances and actions.


i've noticed this too. it seems reticent to engage, especially in pursuits where it has a clear advantage.

Yeah, that's definitely an issue. The AI generally errs on the side of caution so that it will minimize player-side casualties, but in pursuit scenarios in particular that can be glaring. The trouble is making it more aggressive in just these situations without exposing it to more danger, if for example you're pursuing a superior force.


Should I just record my gameplay

I'd really appreciate it, if it's not too much trouble. Based on your description in the OP, it's hard to say what's going on. I will say that the AI is the same for both your ship and the enemy (unless the enemy had an officer with a different personality), so it's weird that yours would lose if it had that much of an advantage to start. But then there aren't really any specifics, for all I know the ship at 10% was an Onslaught facing your Dram :)

Why I think is that the weapon range of the enemy is higher than that of my ship.
Hence why my ship tries to be out of his weapon range but tries to get close itself to get into his own weapon range hence making it look like an endless dance.

What it tends to do is try to close in until its flux starts getting high, and then backs off. Committing in a situation like this is a risk, and it's something it will try to avoid. Given that in normal circumstances the player is controlling a ship, this is actually desirable - this would keep your allied ship alive longer, and it would close in when it was able to do so safely, while you - controlling another ship - would make the higher risk/reward decisions. *If* that's what's going on, then I'd say it's the expected/desired behavior. The AI is definitely not being tuned for the player ship being on autopilot all the time.

But, again, it's hard to say without seeing what's going on.
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Gothars

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2016, 03:30:17 PM »

The trouble is making it more aggressive in just these situations without exposing it to more danger, if for example you're pursuing a superior force.

A fleet wide manual behavior toggle might be an option.
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Requal

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2016, 03:31:49 PM »

Will record on my next gameplay hoping that might help you.

Yeah some other guy also wondered why I didn't control my ship myself but I just like that kind of gameplay.
I controlled it at first but it makes some battles way too easy because the AI avoids dmg more than trying to attack me in most cases.
Had several 1vs2 or more battles and won without issues whilst controlling untill I actually found out that you could let your own ship take control.
Haven't controlled my ship since then since battles were much more realistic in a balanced way except the issue at hand.
Hence why I leave the battles to AI and just spend my points and hope that "My Pilot" does the job right.
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Alex

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2016, 03:47:50 PM »

The trouble is making it more aggressive in just these situations without exposing it to more danger, if for example you're pursuing a superior force.

A fleet wide manual behavior toggle might be an option.

Hmm. I wonder if making an explicit "search and destroy" make ships more aggressive would be a way to go. A bit hidden, though - and I'm not sure that in the case of pursuit, even aggressive officers are aggressive enough.


Will record on my next gameplay hoping that might help you.

Thank you! Honestly, that's about the only way to catch a (potential) AI issue. Either that, or it showing up frequently enough in specific simulator fights, so that I can reproduce it locally.

Yeah some other guy also wondered why I didn't control my ship myself but I just like that kind of gameplay.
I controlled it at first but it makes some battles way too easy because the AI avoids dmg more than trying to attack me in most cases.
Had several 1vs2 or more battles and won without issues whilst controlling untill I actually found out that you could let your own ship take control.
Haven't controlled my ship since then since battles were much more realistic in a balanced way except the issue at hand.
Hence why I leave the battles to AI and just spend my points and hope that "My Pilot" does the job right.

Not going to tell you how to play the game, but let me just say that it's deeeefinitely not meant for that :) The whole thing with "a player controlled ship is in the equation to break any stalemates etc" is... I don't know if I'd call it a core assumption, but it's definitely a big consideration when doing AI work.

But, of course, the AI can always be improved. The potential trouble is that improving it for one situation can lead to problems in another, so one has to be careful. Hence "erring on the side of caution", because the AI quickly losing one of your allied ships is just about the worst outcome. Sorry if I'm belaboring the point!
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Chronopolize

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2016, 12:05:14 AM »

I agree. A seperate, hard-attack command would be good, and wouldn't risk making the AI suffer increased losses by default. It's a really basic command, as commander of the fleet you should really be able to (for the cost of a command point), tell X ships to charge up a lane or towards a target.
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HELMUT

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2016, 10:06:16 AM »

A fleet wide manual behavior toggle might be an option.

Hmm. I wonder if making an explicit "search and destroy" make ships more aggressive would be a way to go. A bit hidden, though - and I'm not sure that in the case of pursuit, even aggressive officers are aggressive enough.

Sounds like a good idea. I exclusively use "search and destroy" to finish the fleeing survivors in battle, and i'm a bit saddened by the lack of enthusiasm from my ships when it comes to engaging (relatively) harmless targets.
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Kissa-mies

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2016, 10:37:45 AM »

I've always wanted to be able to set a stance for my fleet myself. This would also avoid AI sillyness since as a human you can make these decisions and not fail terribly. it would go something like :
Pursue (aggressive)
Search & destroy (steady)
Skirmish (cautious)
This wouldn't make personalities pointless either if you make it cost Command points. Or you could give it to your whole fleet in case of a pursuit or when fighting highly outnumbered.
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VuNut

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Re: Is there a way to improve player combat AI?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2016, 06:53:13 PM »

I wonder, could making the AI braver if it's armour is in good condition (in comparison to it's target, using absolute values to avoid a ship with untouched 200 trying to face-tank something with 500 half gone) work? That way it'd be far more likely to press the attack even at high flux, since it can afford the risk. Might make the incidences of unnecessary light/moderate damage more common but I'd take that over excessively standoffish AI any day.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 06:57:33 PM by VuNut »
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