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Author Topic: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad  (Read 29001 times)

Megas

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2016, 09:02:06 AM »

... those "OP skills" are the only thing that HELPS new/ early game players ...

This is true, but the flipside is that those same skills, when used by enemy officers, make the battlefield much much more dangerous for your allied ships, discouraging you from deploying them as it gets towards the later game. Skills heavily skew offense over defense, so that's just a natural consequence. Any mistake is more deadly, any failure to capitalize on a mistake is more glaring, etc.
Admittedly true.  Back in 0.65, enemy flagship was a priority target.  Kill it immediately, and the rest of my fleet can destroy the remaining fleet with one or two casualties at worst.  Now, officers combined with fewer ships in my fleet makes soloing fleets the most practical option.  I cannot always stop the enemy from killing some of my eleven fighting ships (and I need every single one as a flagship depending on enemy fleet size - hence a toolbox), and carriers and fighters cannot compete by endgame.  In addition, I may need to fight multiple battles in a row in a hostile system, so I cannot deploy all even if I could.
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enkkus

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2016, 09:12:31 AM »

At the very least there ought to be a toggle, either visibly in the game options or hidden in some config file, which lets you disable peak operating time without adjusting a ton of values for every ship on every update.
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Dri

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2016, 09:25:36 AM »

Just popping in to say that I've played one game to the point where I had 20M credits (on the full difficulty) and ran into an issue with operating time maybe... twice?

Dare I say it? Perhaps you are playing the game poorly and need to reevaluate your strategies.
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Schwartz

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2016, 10:50:20 AM »

I run into CR timer issues only (but regularly) on phase ships. At the same time, I'm wary of any mechanics that're just put in place to curb soloing and kiting - because there aren't that many people who play the game like that. Be careful that the cure isn't worse than the very rare disease.

If Combat skills are nerfed, that will directly nerf soloing ability and nerf the '10 officer ships or the highway' fleet builds that are now pretty much mandatory. This is why I would stress that the skill tree be done sooner rather than later. Other fixes may not even be required and would just compound later into another thing that'd need to be changed twice.
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Alex

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2016, 11:13:10 AM »

This is why I would stress that the skill tree be done sooner rather than later. Other fixes may not even be required and would just compound later into another thing that'd need to be changed twice.

A quick note about that: been working on a design doc in the last couple of days with details on the skill revamp, precisely because things are at a point where it's necessary to get more detail on exactly how skills will look, even if they aren't modified yet. So, very much on the same page here.

I run into CR timer issues only (but regularly) on phase ships.

Yep, that makes sense. Phase ships would be incredibly OP without that (and are arguably still pretty OP), but having peak time helps balance them out while allowing them to be different.

If Combat skills are nerfed, that will directly nerf soloing ability and nerf the '10 officer ships or the highway' fleet builds that are now pretty much mandatory.

Sort of a side note: I'd say that "builds" currently don't have a whole lot of relevance to the picture later on, since currently the ratio of skill points to possible choices of where to spend them is very high.
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HELMUT

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2016, 12:56:13 PM »

I spent more than an hour writing an elaborated post about CR, the cause and consequence of soloing, early game, the AI and a whole lot of stuff loosely related to this thread. But after writing that gigantic wall of text, i decided to erase it all just to quote Schwartz :

At the same time, I'm wary of any mechanics that're just put in place to curb soloing and kiting - because there aren't that many people who play the game like that.

I have to say that among the people on the forums (inside and outside the official one) and the let's players on youtube, i have yet to see an actual solo-er asides from Megas and now enkkus. Not to say their opinions are invalid, but it's just that solo-ing, despite being more efficient, takes too much time and effort to be worth for the majority of players.

Yeah, CR probably can have some tweaks here and there to be less problematic for some play-styles. But honestly? Good enough, for now.
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Cik

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2016, 09:32:20 PM »

soloing is basically just exploiting the ai's slightly deficient force-estimation capabilities and the current absurdly powerful nature of player skills. i don't think it should be catered to. it's a fleet combat game dammit.
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Morbo513

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2016, 01:50:13 AM »

I've only read through the OP, and I disagree. If kiting is how you want to play it, sure, but I just see it as this:
soloing is basically just exploiting the ai's slightly deficient force-estimation capabilities and the current absurdly powerful nature of player skills. i don't think it should be catered to. it's a fleet combat game dammit.

CR, deployment costs etc. help link together the context of each tactical battle with overall "strategy". In its current form I love it, probably wouldn't enjoy the game as much without it.
That's not to say there's no room for improvement - CR encompasses both how well the ships' systems are maintained, and the morale and ability of their crews - I'd prefer to see those separated, with crew experience defining the flat rate of CR degradation and its cap, with morale as a modifier. The more experienced the crew, the less both positive and negative events influence their morale and therefore the more stable their ship's CR is. Backing away from the battle would allow their morale and therefore the ship's CR to recover, the rate of CR recovery being defined by morale and experience. The ship taking hull damage during battle would reduce its maximum CR throughout the battle, while crew deaths would do the same for morale.


What's behind idea is this: The stress on both crew and the ship's systems isn't uniform throughout the course of a battle. The chance of malfunctions and overall performance should be more influenced by events (Damage, crew death) than time. If you haemorrhage 80% of your crew during a fight, the enemy don't even need to cause any more damage because the remaining crew will be stretched thin across its systems, in addition to being less efficient because of the demoralisation caused by their buddies dying. If you've been in a knife-fight for an hour straight, the ship's systems will be under constant stress and will mechanically fail from time to time, but if you've been scoring victories throughout, your crew will stay on top of it, especially if this is their 100th battle. So in other words, if you're fighting conservatively you can maintain CR indefinitely, and if you're being reckless and aggressive, or biting off more than you can proverbially chew, you will expend CR depending on your crew's experience, size and morale.

Couple "little" things that'd have to be changed/added - Rather than CR having thresholds for malfunction chances, those chances would scale dynamically with CR. Even at 99% you might lose an engine for a few seconds, but it'd be extremely unlikely and fixed quickly.
You'd also have to be able to assign the crew of a ship, ie filling your best ships with as many elites as you have, then veteran, etc relegating your least experienced crew to non-combat ships for example.
You should also be able to prioritise which systems your crew will work on, for example if I set engines at high priority and most of my weapons low, engine malfunctions will be less likely and fixed quicker while the inverse is true for those weapons.

I might make a more detailed post about this proposed system later because I haven't really got it all sorted out in my head yet, nor did I really articulate it well.


Oh, since phase ships have been mentioned - I bloody hate the things, it feels like the only time I can get a clean kill on them is if the AI makes a mistake.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 01:53:57 AM by Morbo513 »
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Megas

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2016, 05:17:41 AM »

Quote
soloing is basically just exploiting the ai's slightly deficient force-estimation capabilities and the current absurdly powerful nature of player skills. i don't think it should be catered to. it's a fleet combat game dammit.
It will never be a fleet combat game as long as AI is allowed to have an overwhelming numbers advantage (your 25 vs their 40+).  The only way to beat an overwhelming enemy without losing your AI controlled ships is to never let the AI control your ships, which means soloing the enemy fleet.  Also, combat is costly, it is hard to profit unless you solo fleets.

Back in 0.65, player could have a numbers advantage, and could stand down to recover 50% CR after the fight was done.  That made fleet action, at least for frigates, worthwhile.
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Megas

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2016, 05:28:51 AM »

Re: Morbo513's post
Stuff like that makes me wish we had no CR as pre-0.6, but now that CR is used for everything, I kind of wish hull merged with CR for simplicity's sake, despite some possible head-scratchers that would result.
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Cik

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2016, 06:34:31 AM »

Quote
soloing is basically just exploiting the ai's slightly deficient force-estimation capabilities and the current absurdly powerful nature of player skills. i don't think it should be catered to. it's a fleet combat game dammit.
It will never be a fleet combat game as long as AI is allowed to have an overwhelming numbers advantage (your 25 vs their 40+).  The only way to beat an overwhelming enemy without losing your AI controlled ships is to never let the AI control your ships, which means soloing the enemy fleet.  Also, combat is costly, it is hard to profit unless you solo fleets.

Back in 0.65, player could have a numbers advantage, and could stand down to recover 50% CR after the fight was done.  That made fleet action, at least for frigates, worthwhile.

not really true, though the 25 ship limit is very pointless. the other system based on leadership was better imo. the things that currently limit fleet battles like frigate fragility, cost/benefit of committing to battles and fighters being worthless can all be remedied with some number tweaks.
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Megas

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2016, 07:45:08 AM »

We do not have those number tweaks until the next release, which is a long while away (at least November, if pattern of previous releases continue).

Until we get those number tweaks, I do not want to deploy my ten or so AI wingmen (I have freighters and vacancies for new ships in my fleet) against a hundred ship death fleet (or even forty ship detachment).  They will probably die.  That is like deploying seven 5 DP AI frigates (e.g., Lasher, Wolf) against Hegemony System Defense Fleet with three Onslaughts back in the day.

Leadership/Fleet Logistics 10 was nice, but if you never got it, then you were stuck with a mere 20 Logistics, which was only enough for a battlecruiser (i.e., Conquest) or a few frigates.  With such few ships, player had no choice but to solo fleets.  I never maxed Leadership until level 56, and when I did get that high for 10-10-10 is when I considered the campaign to truly begin.  In other words, endgame is really when the game began for me.  Before that was one extra long and boring tutorial level.

Currently, 25 ship limit is nice early in the game, but by endgame, it is not enough even if I use all 25 slots for combat ships, which is not a good idea because it hurts looting.
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Cik

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2016, 08:18:23 AM »

25 ship limit should just be abolished. i'm not sure why it exists save maybe to give the ai fleetblob a nigh insurmountable advantage that the player cannot employ. as it is it seems like deploying more ships is actually a disadvantage; while deployment CR is a good way to curb deploy-all, it's too harsh in even battles and essentially irrelevant in 1 v. multitude scenarios.

p.s. buff fighters plx
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Megas

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2016, 08:28:24 AM »

Maintaining and deploying many ships is costly, another reason to solo the enemy.  However, if the player built up a surplus and does not care about saving money to gamble it all away for ships after a few months, then player can afford to deploy entire fleets for fun at times despite the high cost.
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kazi

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Re: In-battle CR Timer - Why It's Bad
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2016, 02:52:45 PM »

Just contributing my 2 cents worth here:

I hate the timers specific to each ship, and it feels like a very artificial mechanic. "Okay you've got 180 seconds to finish this fight before your fun runs out and you need to retreat." That said, I very much like the idea of ships "running out of steam" mid-combat once they exhaust their ammunition/supplies/repairs/whatever. The Onslaught is a great example of this. It's near unbeatable as long as those annihilators still have ammo. Once they're out, however, you might have an opening.

My advice is get rid of the CR timer completely and replace it with the following extremely easy to implement mechanics:
- Hard ammunition limits. No more magically regenerating missiles and autocannons. Once your ship is out of ammo, you're done. This gives an advantage to picking otherwise sub-optimal weapons that have higher ammo capacities and/or don't lose performance over the course of a fight (energy weapons could become very advantageous in long fights, even though they might have worse flux efficiencies up front).
- Make engine malfunctions and degraded engine performance scale with amount of damage taken by the engines. Again, once they've taken heavy damage, you won't be able to pull the same acceleration and you need to be really skillful to be able to push damaged engines to their limit.
- Shield efficiency could decay with damage taken. You could pick hullmods and skills to lengthen the amount of time you can last under heavy firepower. Alternatively, you could use lower-tech ships that are less reliant on shields and see less shield efficiency decay over the course of a fight.
- Phase ships should lose the ability to phase (or only partially phase out) the more they use their phase systems.
- After a battle, the levels of all systems get set to the CR value of the ship.

Basically I want a mechanic that reflects actual use of systems in combat, not an artificial, "oh you picked this ship, that means you get X seconds of fun". You should be able to control how long and in what ways your ship lasts in combat with your choice of weapons/skills/hullmods. It used to be very worth it to pick expanded magazines on a ballistics-heavy flagship. Otherwise you'd be a sitting duck after a few minutes if you really had to start blowing people away.
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