Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Broadside ships are still not viable  (Read 20183 times)

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1454
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2016, 12:39:00 AM »

I think it'd be cool if a ship calculated its own ideal positioning based on all the weapon arcs and how its shield works. The engines are usually a weak spot, and we see ships generally trying to keep their nose on the enemy - but this doesn't have to always be correct. Modded ships might have Star Trek nacelles and guns on the butt. Think of a freighter for example whose job would usually be to try and get away from enemies. Broadsides aren't the only option for ships with crazy loadouts, and you'd be able to nip future trouble in the bud if ships were made to find their own sweet spots over all 360°. Likewise this could help to inspire fleeing ships to retreat flying backwards.

What if you gave a Conquest a certain loadout and after you finished configuring it, it went through it like.. "I'm offensive on the left. On the right, I have the most point defense so this will be my 'back'. My front has guided missiles so I don't have to point it." And it'd just calculate which side should be facing the enemy most of the time. For a two-broadside loadout with torpedos in front, it could be an either-or with a preference to stay pointed once it had decided on which side to point. Maybe even an ideal scenario of finding a position with enemies in both arcs. Or an opportunity option for using maneuvering jets and shooting the torpedos at overloaded ships.

Not that I think broadside ships generally suck. You see some pretty good maneuvering sometimes. But there's also quirky stuff and a tendency to stubbornly point the front at the enemy, or to wiggle back and forth between positions with no real efficient way to bring the guns to bear. These ships don't really get their own strength the way they should, which is a pity.
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2016, 01:05:54 AM »

The AI already does all of that. There is just situations where the AI can't make a decision for some reason, or make the wrong one.
Logged
 

Schwartz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1454
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2016, 01:46:57 AM »

Could've fooled me.

To be fair, the AI does turn a ship on its side if it sees a weapon there that it can use. But it isn't *free* in choosing which way to turn for an engagement. It repeatedly turns to aim its front at the enemy even if there's nothing there. This hurts the AI and doesn't accomplish anything. It also doesn't calculate ideal overlaps. Couple of experiments for the simulator. Put 2 Railguns into the two rear slots of a Centurion. Put a single IR Pulse Laser into the rear-facing slot of a Medusa. Make a one-side agressive, one-side PD loadout for a Conquest with Pulse Lasers in front.

Edit: Okay, it does calculate the best overlaps - as long as they're not anywhere near the engines. So the AI is free to turn roughly anywhere from -90° to 90°. I guess there's a point to this. But for heavily shielded ships, it's a straight downside.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 02:11:59 AM by Schwartz »
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2016, 02:25:00 AM »

Actually that behavior is probably the AI trying to spread the incoming fire impacts on its armor and avoid taking hull damage.
Logged
 

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 25904
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2016, 10:21:05 AM »

Here you go!

Ahh, can't open up the file. 7-zip is borked on my machine, and filzip shows an empty archive. Mind putting it in a regular zipfile?
That's weird...  Here's a zip then.

Uhh. Built-in windows zip utility can open the file and see what's in it, but fails to extract. Filzip only sees and is able to extract some of the files.

What are you even using to compress these files? :) Could you try right click -> "send to" -> "compressed (zipped) folder"? Unless that's what you're already doing, which would be really weird.


Something that might be more useful is static AI assignment, like defining broadside preference on a per-hull level.

It'd have to consider the weapons that are installed regardless, though, at which point I'm not sure what good a per-hull hint would be. Just one more piece of information to consider, potentially meaning a bad decision made on the basis of it.
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2016, 01:15:50 PM »

Uhh. Built-in windows zip utility can open the file and see what's in it, but fails to extract. Filzip only sees and is able to extract some of the files.
The first was done with 7zip, the second with winrar, what software are you using? ? ? ? ? ?
Anyway, here's a windows zip.
Logged
 

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 25904
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2016, 03:51:58 PM »

Using the built-in windows thing. And filzip. WinRAR is, uh, questionable in terms of the file format it outputs. I've had problems using it before.


Took a look - hmm. Vs the same Dominator as in the gif, it seems to be mostly working fine over here. Having an ITU helps a lot, btw, though it seems to behave alright without it as well. I did see occasional behavior like in the gif, but only without the ITU - it seems to be related to being near the edge of weapon range. Made a note to look at it more closely at some point, but it was rather intermittent, and I wouldn't say it made the ship useless, just a bit less aggressive than it might otherwise be.

Thanks for uploading the mod! Sorry it turned out to be so much trouble :)

Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2016, 01:34:58 AM »

Alex, I'm sorry but you either not see the same behavior as me at all, or you are unfair. Here is a typical AI battle on my end (no mod changing the gameplay or AI btw, only the radar):



   I timed it and the battle lasted for 5 min 10. The ship has been in range of the enemy and able to fire (not overloaded) for 3 min 31 during that time, but was only showing it's broadside weapons a whole 1 min 23. That's 39.3% of the time, not "a bit less aggressive". (Considering the broadsides represent 3 times as much non-missile firepower than the front, we can almost say that the ship was used roughly at 59% of it's total strength.)

   I also noticed that before the armor was compromised, the ship was in range for 1 min 27 while only broadsiding 19 seconds for a 21.8% ratio. However once the armor had been compromised, the ship was in range for 2 min 4, while broadsiding 1 min 4, giving us a 51.6% ratio. Conclusion, the broadside AI really isn't really good but the damage spreading works great!

   On the other hand the Dominator was pointing its weapons at the target virtually 100% of the time. Also note that I used the "Elite" loadout of the Attrition with great weapons damage, great range and decent flux stats, against the worst Dominator loadout without any KE damage. The battle was excruciatingly long, and IT STILL LOST! That shouldn't be the case, if the ship had the same frontal loadout than one of it's sides, I'm confident it would have won easily.

   And finally I noticed that the non PD medium and large weapons kept tracking the missiles while not firing on the enemy ship while in range! It wasn't a weapon grouping problem as you can see in the video, and I don't think that's the desired behavior when you made them follow the target while not in auto-fire.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 01:39:13 AM by Tartiflette »
Logged
 

Histidine

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
    • View Profile
    • GitHub profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2016, 07:27:55 AM »

Probably not related, but I just noticed something funny about the autopilot in the video: Why is it flickering autofire on the non-missile weapon groups (often including the PD one) on and off, simultaneously, at seemingly random occasions?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 07:34:58 AM by Histidine »
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 25904
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2016, 11:36:03 AM »

Hmm. Just checked the last check-in date for some of the related AI classes, and they're all from pre-release. I suppose it's possible another change elsewhere in the AI is affecting this, but I don't seem to remember messing with the broadside AI since then. I do recall making some AI bugfixes, but iirc they weren't broadside-related. But not 100% sure.

Is this definitely a "typical" battle you're seeing? I can just about see this happen as a rare worst-case scenario where everything goes badly. For example, at 1:00, it's *trying* to turn towards a broadside, but given the enemy's motion, it looks like it's turning to face it instead - you can see that when the relative motion changes, it's finally able to turn to broadside, although much too late to do any good.

Having a hard time figuring out what it's doing at 1:30 or 2:00, though, and not seeing anything at all like that on my end. Which is confounding, because the code involved should be the same for us both.

What I'm seeing on my end is probably closer to spending two-thirds of the time or more on-target, depending on how you count switching sides/time spent just out of range/etc. In a more generous interpretation of those, it spends probably 75% of the time lined up correctly.

For a somewhat more objective measurement, it beats that Dominator maybe 4 our of 5 times, usually with about half the hull left. When it does lose, it's very close, like in the video - but it's not due to broadside maneuvering being poor in that particular fight, it seems more due whether it's ever able to get breathing room to vent/dissipate or not. That stream of rockets applies a lot of pressure.

I'd also note that this Dominator, despite being the "worst" in terms of, ah, "apparent quality" I guess, is by far the toughest of the 3 simulator loadouts. The flux-free rocket pressure is hard to deal with for any AI ship. Running a few tests, the "Elite" Attrition beats both other loadouts without taking a single point of hull damage.

So - I'm not exactly sure what's going on here. Having run maybe 20-30 fights total, I haven't seen a single one that's like the one in the video, especially not the moments at 1:30 and 2:00, though I did see 1:00 a couple of times.

Did also find a bug! It seems like it decides to turn face-on towards an enemy once they're overloaded. Made a note to fix that up.

My best guess is that the AI on my side of things is somehow different, though I'm not entirely comfortable with that assessment, as, again, I did look at everything that seems to be involved and it dates to pre-release. All I can say right now is I'll definitely keep an eye on it.

  And finally I noticed that the non PD medium and large weapons kept tracking the missiles while not firing on the enemy ship while in range! It wasn't a weapon grouping problem as you can see in the video, and I don't think that's the desired behavior when you made them follow the target while not in auto-fire.

That happens when it turns off autofire on those weapons due to flux, and they start tracking the "mouse" of the AI ship.

Probably not related, but I just noticed something funny about the autopilot in the video: Why is it flickering autofire on the non-missile weapon groups (often including the PD one) on and off, simultaneously, at seemingly random occasions?

Probably due to flux level changing. The logic there could use some work so it doesn't "flicker" when it repeatedly crosses a specific flux level threshold.
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2016, 02:15:35 PM »

Okay so I decided to collect more data to assess the extend of the issue rather than trying to quantify some "impressions". Turned out that the recorded battle was better than average for that loadout, BUT the AI behaved much better when I tried another one.

I created a hullmod to log the time the AI spent broadsiding or facing its target:
Spoiler
Default Loadout:
2x2 Maulers
2x2 HVDs
Mjolnir

160703 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
160704 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Elite
160704 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
160704 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Eagle Assault
160704 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 140 seconds
160704 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 101
160705 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 9 seconds
160705 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 9 percent.
160705 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
No damage received.



286729 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
286729 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Elite
286731 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
286731 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Dominator Assault
286731 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 60 seconds
286731 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 41
286731 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 9 seconds
286731 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 22 percent.
286732 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
Minor damage.



490962 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
490962 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Elite
490963 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
490963 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Aurora Balanced
490963 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 140 seconds
490963 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 99
490963 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 37 seconds
490963 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 37 percent.
490964 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Defeat
Slightly better average due to the EMP damage often disabling one side forcing the AI to choose to fight with the other one.



860039 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
860039 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Elite
860039 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
860040 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Dominator Outdated
860040 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 330 seconds
860040 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 282
860040 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 141 seconds
860041 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 50 percent.
860041 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
Big damage on the armor that forced the AI to swing left and right to spread the incoming fire.


Different Loadout:
2x4 Maulers
Mark IX

1283576 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
1283576 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Standard
1283577 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
1283577 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Eagle Assault
1283577 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 250 seconds
1283577 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 166
1283577 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 48 seconds
1283577 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 29 percent.
1283577 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
Longer battle, some armor got compromised leading to more broadsides. I'll also mention that the AI used a lot the Burn Drive forcing it to fate the target a bit more than it would have otherwise.



1740610 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
1740610 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Standard
1740611 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
1740611 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Dominator Support
1740611 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 230 seconds
1740611 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 163
1740611 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 90 seconds
1740611 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 55 percent.
1740611 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
A pretty good engagement, except for that moment in the middle when the AI suddenly decided to face the enemy without any apparent reason for a while. But the rest of the time it performed as well as I could have asked, maintaining its range when the target could fire, closing a bit when it couldn't, and broadsiding the majority of the time. If all engagement were as good as this one I wouldn't have nearly as much complains.



2205252 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
2205252 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Standard
2205253 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
2205253 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Aurora Balanced
2205254 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 210 seconds
2205254 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 152
2205254 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 74 seconds
2205254 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 49 percent.
2205254 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Defeat
A somewhat correct battle although the ratio is helped by a convenient flameout leaving the ship sideways, and the EMP really forcing the AI to choose to fight with a side.



2745319 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
2745319 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Standard
2745319 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 1000.0
2745319 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Dominator Outdated
2745320 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 310 seconds
2745320 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 257
2745320 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 154 seconds
2745320 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 60 percent.
2745320 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
Now that was a really good battle. The AI really tried to keep its sides facing the target at range, only reverting to face it when it was close for some reason.


Different Loadout:
2x4 Arbalests
Hellbore

3822931 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
3822931 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Outdated
3822932 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 900.0
3822932 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Dominator Assault
3822932 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 150 seconds
3822932 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 113
3822932 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 9 seconds
3822932 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 8 percent.
3822933 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
8%... It only got its victory thanks the the augmented engines of that variant to stay out of range of the enemy (pretty good positioning behavior btw)



4096786 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
4096787 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Outdated
4096787 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 900.0
4096787 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Aurora Balanced
4096787 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 170 seconds
4096791 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 133
4096791 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 60 seconds
4096791 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 45 percent.
4096791 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Defeat
Once again helped a LOT by the EMP and a convenient flameout, when all weapons were active the AI couldn't stop facing the enemy.



4364487 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
4364487 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Outdated
4364487 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 900.0
4364487 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Eagle Assault
4364488 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 130 seconds
4364488 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 98
4364488 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 18 seconds
4364488 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 18 percent.
4364488 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Victory
A small ratio helped by constant Burn Drives ending next to the target before quickly turning face to it again.



4927760 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI analysis
4927761 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - AI ship type: Attrition Outdated
4927761 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Weapon Range: 900.0
4927761 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Enemy ship type: Dominator Support
4927762 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in Battle: 370 seconds
4927762 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time in range: 265
4927762 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Time broadside: 58 seconds
4927762 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - or 22 percent.
4927762 [Thread-4] INFO  data.hullmods.AiDebug  - Battle outcome: Defeat
Perfect example of the wrong behavior.
[close]

The second loadout performed way better overall so the issue might come from the AI having some troubles to assess the power of a side with non-HE damage weapons. Still the AI performs better once the Armor has been breached and it start to spin spreading the damage, or when one side got disabled through EMP.

On a personal note, that ship might need a nerf, it's way too strong when equipped with a AI broadside-friendly loadout.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 02:18:41 PM by Tartiflette »
Logged
 

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 25904
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2016, 09:46:39 PM »

Okay so I decided to collect more data to assess the extend of the issue rather than trying to quantify some "impressions". Turned out that the recorded battle was better than average for that loadout, BUT the AI behaved much better when I tried another one.

...


Interesting - really does make me think the AI is different in the dev build.
Logged

kazi

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 714
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2016, 12:20:22 PM »

Okay so I decided to collect more data to assess the extend of the issue rather than trying to quantify some "impressions". Turned out that the recorded battle was better than average for that loadout, BUT the AI behaved much better when I tried another one.

...


Interesting - really does make me think the AI is different in the dev build.


Shouldn't you be able to tell from version control? I mean, it should be pretty easy to see what you've changed.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 25904
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2016, 12:25:39 PM »

As I mentioned earlier, according to version control, I'm not seeing any changes in the files I believe are relevant. But I could be forgetting about something else that factors in here and not looking at that, so I'm guessing that's what's happening here.

Obviously I *could* dig into this and figure it out 100%, but it's a question of how much time I want to spend investigating.

(Edit: the main thing, from my pov, is that what's in the dev version is working well. The rest is fairly academic... I mean, I did check into the change history etc, but digging further doesn't seem worthwhile.)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 12:34:20 PM by Alex »
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3529
  • MagicLab discord: https://discord.gg/EVQZaD3naU
    • View Profile
Re: Broadside ships are still not viable
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2016, 10:53:26 AM »

To close this matter, I really tried everything to make this ship work with the current AI because I didn't want to sit on the sprite for 8 months until the next update, but it really won't work at all.


 

   I changed the central large mount for a 270 degree frontal medium and added to sideways turrets, I used almost the same loadout that seemed to work okay before... And it behaved way worse.

I then tried without any weapon in the front mount, and this happened (full size 10MB gif in spoiler); which is interesting because it show another recurrent bad habit of the AI: its tendency to NOT close the distance with its target for no apparent reason.
Spoiler
[close]

   Please note that it was already going on for a while when I decided to start recording this behavior. I finally cut the battle after more than 8 minutes with neither ship below 75% hull, and the Attrition had just 25% broadsiding time while in range.

   So there seems to be no way to make this ship functional for now. I'll try again in December once we get the next update I suppose.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 09:52:47 AM by Tartiflette »
Logged
 
Pages: 1 [2] 3