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[Raaaain]

Hello !

Just a quick message to let the author know that the "Trebuchet LRM Launcher [Large Missile]" weapon is, in my opinion, unbalanced.

Combined with the ship Pegasus, with an officer having the talent "Missile specialization" and the hull mods "ECCM Package" and "Expanded Missile Racks", the ship can easily destroy two battlecruisers very easily in less than 1min.
At the start of a battle, it single-handedly exterminates half the opposing fleet if equipped with 4 Trebuchets.

Perhaps a nerf would make it more enjoyable to use?

Eeeeehhhhh, I wouldn't say trebuchets are overpowered, your just using them on a ship that synergizes well with the trebuchet

In my opinion, they're fine with where they are, if you have sufficient pd coverage they aren't that much of an issue and their EMP isn't that bad of an issue if you have your shields up

[Oranor]

Hello !

Just a quick message to let the author know that the "Trebuchet LRM Launcher [Large Missile]" weapon is, in my opinion, unbalanced.

Combined with the ship Pegasus, with an officer having the talent "Missile specialization" and the hull mods "ECCM Package" and "Expanded Missile Racks", the ship can easily destroy two battlecruisers very easily in less than 1min.
At the start of a battle, it single-handedly exterminates half the opposing fleet if equipped with 4 Trebuchets.

Perhaps a nerf would make it more enjoyable to use?

Eeeeehhhhh, I wouldn't say trebuchets are overpowered, your just using them on a ship that synergizes well with the trebuchet

In my opinion, they're fine with where they are, if you have sufficient pd coverage they aren't that much of an issue and their EMP isn't that bad of an issue if you have your shields up

It's obviously a problem if a battle ship costing 40 deployment points can kill a 40-point battle cruiser + a 55-point battle ship in less than 1min without the slightest difficulty. Yet they have shields and pd coverage.

The Remnant mother ships are destroyed without even having time to fire a single salvo (and they have their shields up). It's the first time I've seen such a destructive build in something like 400 hours of play, and yet I'm trying so many different things!

[Raaaain]

Hello !

Just a quick message to let the author know that the "Trebuchet LRM Launcher [Large Missile]" weapon is, in my opinion, unbalanced.

Combined with the ship Pegasus, with an officer having the talent "Missile specialization" and the hull mods "ECCM Package" and "Expanded Missile Racks", the ship can easily destroy two battlecruisers very easily in less than 1min.
At the start of a battle, it single-handedly exterminates half the opposing fleet if equipped with 4 Trebuchets.

Perhaps a nerf would make it more enjoyable to use?

Eeeeehhhhh, I wouldn't say trebuchets are overpowered, your just using them on a ship that synergizes well with the trebuchet

In my opinion, they're fine with where they are, if you have sufficient pd coverage they aren't that much of an issue and their EMP isn't that bad of an issue if you have your shields up

It's obviously a problem if a battle ship costing 40 deployment points can kill a 40-point battle cruiser + a 55-point battle ship in less than 1min without the slightest difficulty. Yet they have shields and pd coverage.

The Remnant mother ships are destroyed without even having time to fire a single salvo (and they have their shields up). It's the first time I've seen such a destructive build in something like 400 hours of play, and yet I'm trying so many different things!

Hold up, lemme actually try this out, I got like a spare 11 mil on my current playthrough

What exactly is your Pegasus loadout?

[Oranor]

Yeah sure ! Just use the autopilot.

But honestly, I think any build works as long as you put all 4 Trebuchets + the various perks that boost ship's missiles and the captain

Spoiler

[close]

[koprus]

IWIN button missiles right there, also the ion torpedo rack feels too strong, 1000 energy 4500 emp dmg with large AOE plus tracking and 1000 flux target raise if it hilts hull or armor, its insane, if that thing hits anything smaller than a capital its game over. I would personally remove the tracking completly since it already has large AOE and the secondary effects on hull. BTW love this mod!

[Raaaain]

Yeah sure ! Just use the autopilot.

But honestly, I think any build works as long as you put all 4 Trebuchets + the various perks that boost ship's missiles and the captain

Spoiler

[close]

Thanks! I'll test it out tonight

[Maethendias]

"extreme modification"
am i the only one that thinks this is just absolutely awefull mechanically?

like what is the point of s modding ships when it literally just turns you into a glorified d mod junker instead?

especially when it becomes permanent, it doesnt make sense conceptually

[Spaceface]

I made an account just to verify that this is very overpowered. A mixed fleet of Trebuchet equiped ships wipes the floor with (almost) everything. It's true that it has great synergy with a Pegasus, but it works almost as well on an Atlas MK2, Gryphon or mostly anything with a large missile slot. There also seems to be little point in combining it with any other type of missile because more Trebuchet is just straight up better. 

Yeah sure ! Just use the autopilot.

But honestly, I think any build works as long as you put all 4 Trebuchets + the various perks that boost ship's missiles and the captain

Spoiler

[close]

Thanks! I'll test it out tonight

[captshetz]

Came here looking for information on the history of the Vulture, but ran into trebuchet discourse.

I play heavily modded starsector with large battles, and the trebuchet does not seem unbalanced in my games (which tend to focus on fights with large [redacted] fleets).  It seems on par with hurricanes and less effective than squalls.

[digitalizedMind]

Trebuchet LRM needs a nerf. They're like Dragonfires if you removed all of it's downsides. At least remove the high tech station cheese, as shown in this video:

https://youtu.be/c5J4xDHRv6M?si=pLUNJ7dBwkaSQPuD

[Arghy]

Haha he already nerfed the treb already, you shoulda seen what they were doing with a venture MK II fleet. I was wiping the floor against ordos because they had i think ~20 ammo back in the day so space was just filled with fast long range missiles with more hp's.

[digitalizedMind]

Haha he already nerfed the treb already,

So it will be weaker in the next patch? If so, good. I started using Trebuchet when I was doing my Lionsguard run, where I only used Lionsguard skins (also went for sindrian buffalos at first but gave up when i realized just how masochistic that is). I've also always liked the idea of an energy missile because ideally it would be not good, but not bad, against shields and armor. Then I noticed how Trebuchet absolutely cheeses high tech stations by destroying station modules through the shields because the AoE is literally broken. It really sucks being on the receiving end of this because I have the mod More Military Missions installed, so I often end up in battles where I am defending a station but need it to help kill things to save it. Which is basically impossible if the enemy has several Trebuchets and kills half of the modules in a minute.

In case anyone reading thinks it doesn't need a nerf, let me explain (in the eyes of a casual player):

Firstly, homing missiles generally have somewhere around 150 health (Harpoons have 150) and torpedoes generally have around 400 health (Hammers have 350) but of course there are exceptions (Breaches have 450). Trebuchet missiles have 400 health, which is not bad when combined with medium speed, but not enough to get through good PD.

Additionally, missiles may have the following roles:

• anti-shield
• anti-armor
• finisher (anti-hull)
• suppression (usually this means EMP damage, unless you're a squall, then this is sustained shield DPS)
• anti small craft (fighters, generally)
• support (very long range + can pass over allies)
• absurdly busted anti high tech star fortress device (please fix this)

The problem is that missiles generally only fill 1 or 2 of these roles. Trebuchet LRM fits ALL of them. You'd expect a jack of all trades to be a master of none, but it's always good enough. It has the same problem as Dragonfires, but worse - they are universally good missiles that are not exactly bad in any situation.

You could argue they're vulnerable to PD, but not really. Like I said, they have high health and medium speed, if a ship has good enough PD to reliably take town trebuchet salvos, a bunch of other things aren't gonna get through. I've seen someone argue "just shield tank it" my brother in christ, 1000x3 energy damage is gonna overload you, especially if you're in a low tech ship. If you check the video in my previous comment, I managed to overload a paragon with a pegasus. I've even seen people arguing "it's just good synergy between pegasus and trebuchet" No, it's overpowered synergy. I'm no expert but I don't think a 40dp ship should be able to solo a well-equipped high tech battlestation. Or be able to melt 4 capital ships in 20 seconds each. Even then, you don't need to put trebuchet on a pegasus for it to be good. Like I said I made a lionsguard fleet that spammed them, I put them on executors and champions, and even though the fleet wasn't that good the trebuchets often overloaded or killed things. And even if a trebuchet didn't kill, if even a single missile hit, it turns off a chunk of weapons and engines leaving it vulnerable.

That's all I have for now, thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[Arghy]

The problem with the current version of the treb is that it's already borderline useless unless its on an auto forge ship or in larger numbers. I do agree the EMP component seems redundant and i'd love to see multiple versions as i love long range missiles but i'm not the one who'd have to make it 2-3 different versions. Ideally you'd have a full range of specialized warheads on the same long range missile body but thats a lot of work.

My answer to the treb being absolutely OP in large numbers is just not fielding it in large numbers. Just try putting it on 1 ship and you'll see the problem with balance, it'll quickly run out of ammo and if your lucky it will kill a few things because in small numbers it's not OP. If you stick 5+ on the field you'll cackle and enjoy swathes of enemy ships getting burnt to a crisp then just retreat them when they're out of ammo and call in new ships.

[digitalizedMind]

Just try putting it on 1 ship and you'll see the problem with balance, it'll quickly run out of ammo and if your lucky it will kill a few things because in small numbers it's not OP.

People say the same thing about squall. Either way, i'm not convinced. Even when my lionsguard fleet only had 1 trebuchet (on my flagship champion) it was still excellent at punishing ships with high flux. Energy + EMP damage means you overload if you shield-tank it and you lose armor and weapons if you armor-tank it.

In terms of ammo, Trebuchet has 15 max ammo and fires salvos of 3 missiles, giving it a base of 5 salvos. I can't say that's not bad for a large missile, but Trebuchets are very comparable to Dragonfires because they have the same problems. The Dragonfire pod also has 5 salvos, and it's a fair downside to 4000 energy damage you literally cannot avoid. Some would even say it's not fair enough. Trebuchet having low ammo is a fair downside for being extremely versatile. All large missiles have enough ammo if you get expanded missile racks and the missile skill. (Hammer barrage is arguably an exception due to it's high fire rate and low salvo count)

If you have the fire rate bonus from missile spec and the fire rate penalty from smodded EMR, that's a 17 second cooldown, combined with 15 salvos it takes you almost 5 minutes to run out of ammo, assuming you are spamming it the entire battle. Sure that's lower than a lot of ship's PPT, but it's still good enough for medium-duration fights. My Lionsguard fleet rarely ran out of ammo during battles, and even when it did, enough enemy ships died that we weren't facing a larger force anymore.

[Arghy]

Is there a reason the liberator light BB is only speed 7 instead of speed 8? I wanted to build up a fast capital force and i found it odd that this ship is the same speed as the onslaught and legion which are hands down better than it.