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Author Topic: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event  (Read 3525 times)

Lord_Matheas

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2024, 09:50:11 AM »

This situation sucks but maybe we just need to have titled for reputable modders in the community and reputable mods. That way once mods have earned trust they can be designated as such or so on. As a whole the problem is not punishment it is prevention.
Dont think that would ever work. Matt was well respected by fellow modders until the TNP fork caught his attention and he got himself banned in the span of what...   less than a week?
Many of his fellow moders too, despite doing phenomenal work, dont have the ammount of trust in their infallibility that would be needed for such a mantle.

more ideas can be pitched, of course, but i like leaving my trust in Alex's sole hands for now
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 09:55:54 AM by Lord_Matheas »
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Alexios7333

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2024, 09:55:45 AM »

This situation sucks but maybe we just need to have titled for reputable modders in the community and reputable mods. That way once mods have earned trust they can be designated as such or so on. As a whole the problem is not punishment it is prevention.
Dont think that would ever work. Matt was well respected by fellow modders until the TNP fork caught his atention and he got himself banned in the spand of... less than a week?
Many of his fellow moders too, despite doing phenomenal work, dont have the ammount of trust in their infallibility that would be needed for such a mantle.

more ideas can be pitced, of course, but i like leaving my trust in alex sole hands for now

Indeed, even steam struggles with these things and can't preempt these sorts of events for the most part. Maybe someone downloads mods and runs it through Total AV to check before it is uploaded to prevent anything worse than save bricking but that is probably the extent of what is reasonably possible.

Of course,
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Nick9

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2024, 10:06:10 AM »

A full and total ban of mod authors who have even once proven to create or distribute any type of malicious code aimed directly at end user, regardless if this approach is targeted to specific users or whole wide scene of modded players.

It's already against everything and deserves a ban, yet I want to notice that there was at least 1 case of such person being rehabilitated, so if we'd REALLY went on a fullscale witch-hunt, in some cases it will be like an execution of felon who already served his time in a prison, was released, and actually changed his life.

edit: although it wasn't really malicious - it was a crashcode for sure, but it was an insta-crash, not a Ludd-have-mercy save bomb. We need to define malicious more clearly though. I am personally against any sort of crashcodes, of course, including incompatibilities created on purpose.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 10:18:52 AM by Nick9 »
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Maelstrom

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2024, 10:08:36 AM »

I think making it a insta ban should be a rule ngl, its hard trusting mods from usc or the forums now because of stuff like this and it keeps getting worse
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mllhild

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2024, 10:13:29 AM »

yep, please blanket ban anyone putting maleware into the code.
For those talking about rutheless mod and realistic combat mod, they clearly state what they do, so they would never fall into the category of malware.

As for crashes due to mod incompatibility, the community seemed to have handled this rather well until now and always tried to fix them.
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Wyvern

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2024, 10:14:56 AM »

I am absolutely in favor of a zero-tolerance policy regarding actual malware, such as mangling saves, sending messages over the internet to the mod author (without explicit and opt-in decisions by the player to do so), etc.

Just bailing out instantly when loading, however? That's not malware. I don't feel it's particularly good design unless there's an actual mechanical reason for it (like, say, I might add such code to my planetary shield generator mod if I knew there was another mod out there that messed with planetary shields in an incompatible way), but even if it's just that the mod author doesn't like mod X and doesn't want their faction to have to deal with things from mod X? That's still not malware. Problematic, sure. Grey area, sure. Deserving of instant zero-tolerance banning... no, it's not.

(Context: This is regarding the OP's definition of "malicious code", which I feel is problematically over-broad.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

mllhild

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2024, 10:16:47 AM »

It's already against everything and deserves a ban, yet I want to notice that there was at least 1 case of such person being rehabilitated, so if we'd REALLY went on a fullscale witch-hunt, in some cases it will be like an execution of felon who already served his time in a prison, was released, and actually changed his life.
game mods are based on trust, once lost it cant be restored.
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FunAndEngaging

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2024, 10:18:23 AM »

Hi!

Making an account here just to chime in on this situation, because I agree that both Fractal Softworks (as the operators of this forum) and we (as a community) need to take a clear stance on this.

The key part here will be the *definition* of malware/malicious code. Using the NIST definition:

Quote
malicious code
[SP 800-53]
Software or firmware intended to perform an unauthorized
process that will have adverse impact on the confidentiality,
integrity, or availability of an information system. A virus,
worm, Trojan horse, or other code-based entity that infects a
host. Spyware and some forms of adware are also examples of
malicious code.

We get three terms that should be already familiar to many people working in IT: confidentiality, integrity, and availability (or CIA for short. No relation.).

- Confidentiality means, obviously, that your data will not be shared with anyone else without your permission. For Starsector mods, this would mostly affect mods that communicate over the internet for updates, telemetry, multiplayer etc. A simple rule that a mod's description must clearly state what data is shared via network (and what, if any, encryption is employed) would suffice here.

- Integrity is the one that relates to the recent drama - but also the most difficult to differentiate. Deleting and changing data is a basic fact of life in the operation of any computer program. Personally I'd appreciate the following limitations:
   - Mods may not affect files outside of Starsector's user data (saves, settings) and their own mod folder. Exceptions, if any, would require a big honking warning on the mod page.
   - Mod authors should list all *known* risks for savegame corruption on the mod page. (e.g. removing the mod mid-campaign, experimental features, incompatibilities. Most mods already do this because it is common sense.)
  Besides those two, many people are also upset about certain hidden features that affect gameplay in an unexpected way (e.g. the infamous damage multipliers in one version of Tahlan). But differentiating this from "bonus content" might be much harder than the above.

- Availability means not depriving players of their ability to use Starsector or other features of their computer. Crashcode may be counted under this point, with the only valid reason to include it being the previous point of Integrity - that is, if a crashcode serves to prevent save corruption/non-functional mods it is valid to include.

In Summary, my suggestions:

- A mod's description should clearly state if it engages in network activitiy , including what data is shared, with whom, and how it is secured during transmission
- A mod's description should clearly state if it makes any changes to files outside of it's own mod folder and it's own dedicated files in the "saves" folder (mod- or mission-specific settings). I would include campaign saves themselves as requiring a mention - just because it can quickly answer if a mod can be safely removed or not.
- A mod's description should clearly state any risks of file corruption (savegame or otherwise) that the mod author is aware of. Blanket disclaimers should try to be as specific as possible ("untested mod, might affect saves" rather than just "use at your own risk")
- A mod's code should not purposefully cause Starsector or other programs to crash without a valid technical reason (such as missing dependencies or risks of data corruption)

With some optional extras worth discussing:

- A mod's code should not be purposefully obfuscated to prevent understanding of it's function
- A mod's description should describe all features that have a major effect on gameplay, such as rebalancing other factions. (Directly? Indirectly? Indirectly in the main text and directly as a spoiler?)
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Somerandomguy16123

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2024, 10:18:54 AM »

I am absolutely in favor of a zero-tolerance policy regarding actual malware, such as mangling saves, sending messages over the internet to the mod author (without explicit and opt-in decisions by the player to do so), etc.

Just bailing out instantly when loading, however? That's not malware. I don't feel it's particularly good design unless there's an actual mechanical reason for it (like, say, I might add such code to my planetary shield generator mod if I knew there was another mod out there that messed with planetary shields in an incompatible way), but even if it's just that the mod author doesn't like mod X and doesn't want their faction to have to deal with things from mod X? That's still not malware. Problematic, sure. Grey area, sure. Deserving of instant zero-tolerance banning... no, it's not.

(Context: This is regarding the OP's definition of "malicious code", which I feel is problematically over-broad.)
I stand with approach that modder can say that mod X is incompatitable with mod Y, but there is no place for restricting players from running mods that they so choose. Be it personal grudge or anything is not excuse to make players unable to play with compatitable mod X that works with mod Y. If someone wants to combine those two mods then they should be more than able to do so, since spirit of modding is not playing a petty grudges or dramas between other modders but creating and giving back to community that they are so invested in.
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Nick9

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2024, 10:19:41 AM »

It's already against everything and deserves a ban, yet I want to notice that there was at least 1 case of such person being rehabilitated, so if we'd REALLY went on a fullscale witch-hunt, in some cases it will be like an execution of felon who already served his time in a prison, was released, and actually changed his life.
game mods are based on trust, once lost it cant be restored.

It was so long time ago it did actually restore though, good luck finding mentions.

I stand with approach that modder can say that mod X is incompatitable with mod Y, but there is no place for restricting players from running mods that they so choose. Be it personal grudge or anything is not excuse to make players unable to play with compatitable mod X that works with mod Y. If someone wants to combine those two mods then they should be more than able to do so, since spirit of modding is not playing a petty grudges or dramas between other modders but creating and giving back to community that they are so invested in.

Yep, this is reasonable and how it should be. But still, what if one mod, for example, hooks to another mod without permission, injects code into its stuff AND clearly mentions that it does that? Grey area? Remove the mod that hooks anyway?

Simple example would be a "balance" mod. Or a mod that mocks some dialogue lines.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 10:25:51 AM by Nick9 »
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Alex

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2024, 10:26:14 AM »

I've just added a new section to the forum rules:


"Good citizen" mod behavior

In addition to following the above rules regarding illegal activities, hate speech, and sexual content, mods that are posted on the forum should not intentionally crash the game, or otherwise intentionally render it unplayable or intentionally degrade the player experience due to the presence of other mods, based on factors other than technical incompatibility. Mods may not also be used for direct harassment of other community members. Violators of this rule may receive punishment up to a permanent ban from the forum, with no preliminary warning, at moderator discretion.



Thank you all for your feedback. Discussing moderator decisions and anything adjacent to it is against the forum rules, so I'm going to lock this thread. However, if you have further input or concerns, please feel free to PM a moderator, or myself!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2024, 10:27:50 AM by Alex »
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Somerandomguy16123

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Re: Suggestion regarding new changes of rules in light of recent event
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2024, 10:29:14 AM »

I've just added a new section to the forum rules:


"Good citizen" mod behavior

In addition to following the above rules regarding illegal activities, hate speech, and sexual content, mods that are posted on the forum should not intentionally crash the game, or otherwise intentionally render it unplayable or intentionally degrade the player experience due to the presence of other mods, based on factors other than technical incompatibility. Mods may not also be used for direct harassment of other community members. Violators of this rule may receive punishment up to a permanent ban from the forum, with no preliminary warning, at moderator discretion.



Thank you all for your feedback. Discussing moderator decisions and anything adjacent to it is against the forum rules, so I'm going to lock this thread. However, if you have further input or concerns, please feel free to PM a moderator, or myself!
Thank you Alex.
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