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[Dr. Death[Lexx]]

Since it's a single player game all of these points are highly situational. Everyone seems to be taking on BC's in a different way and with different strategies. Using a phase ship, another BC, bomber wings, 3 cruisers lined up (yeah against 3 dominators the onslaught doesn't have a chance if they line up correctly...not even if the onslaught is focusing all his fire against one...the other two can be outfitted with kinetic weapons and lock it up in seconds...followed by reaper torpedos...if you so desire...so I don't really see a scenario where a BC can take down 3 or more cruisers without taking massive amounts of damage or being totally wrecked in the end). Of course you can smash down 3-4 cruisers if you fly the cap...you'd know where to focus your fire and see if they are incoming in a aligned position, if that'd be the case, you'd turn away, move out of their line of fire until only one pops up in front of you...1 down...the rest to go. I think the balance in the end really depends on the player and how they are able to manage their fleet. I never even used the Hyperion so I can't tell wherever the ship is OP or not. It's incredible how many mixed feelings people have.

It's really nothing clear and seems to be more of a subjective point of view.

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

[Zenos Ebeth]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

[hadesian]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

*shakes head*
Veteran of Starfa- I mean Starsector voice: NOPE.

[Zenos Ebeth]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

*shakes head*
Veteran of Starfa- I mean Starsector voice: NOPE.

I'd love to give your comment a constructive answer if it wasn't so god damn vague , i'm going to assume you disagree with me and that you think it will bring back bomber spam ( because that's the only reason you would include the fact that you have been playing the game for a long time.) if so , why ? Bombers have already been nerfed.

Or are you just saying " I don't agree " ?

[Andy H.K.]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

Capital ships are called such for a reason.

The way I see it, their supreme combat capability is offset by their huge logistic demand - hull cost, skeleton crew requirement, fleet point requirement, supply consumption, repair time. We may even run into difficulty in arming them in future versions of the game where weapon may become much harder to obtain.

[hadesian]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

*shakes head*
Veteran of Starfa- I mean Starsector voice: NOPE.

I'd love to give your comment a constructive answer if it wasn't so god damn vague , i'm going to assume you disagree with me and that you think it will bring back bomber spam ( because that's the only reason you would include the fact that you have been playing the game for a long time.) if so , why ? Bombers have already been nerfed.

Or are you just saying " I don't agree " ?

I'm just saying, as someone seasoned through hours upon hours of gameplay, tons of time to think over my various fleets, plenty of experience with each weapon, that what you said is wrong. Removal of PD reduces the defensive capabilities of a capship to it's armour and shields, neither of which are useful to them as they are so slow. PD is a CRITICAL part of battleships, not merely because so much of it is converted into raw firepower, but because it's really one of the few things that set capships apart from cruisers - their ability to defend from monstrous onslaughts of fighters, frigates and destroyers. Removing PD should never be done.

[Zenos Ebeth]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

*shakes head*
Veteran of Starfa- I mean Starsector voice: NOPE.

I'd love to give your comment a constructive answer if it wasn't so god damn vague , i'm going to assume you disagree with me and that you think it will bring back bomber spam ( because that's the only reason you would include the fact that you have been playing the game for a long time.) if so , why ? Bombers have already been nerfed.

Or are you just saying " I don't agree " ?

I'm just saying, as someone seasoned through hours upon hours of gameplay, tons of time to think over my various fleets, plenty of experience with each weapon, that what you said is wrong. Removal of PD reduces the defensive capabilities of a capship to it's armour and shields, neither of which are useful to them as they are so slow. PD is a CRITICAL part of battleships, not merely because so much of it is converted into raw firepower, but because it's really one of the few things that set capships apart from cruisers - their ability to defend from monstrous onslaughts of fighters, frigates and destroyers. Removing PD should never be done.

Yep , as you said it yourself capital ship can kill fighters , frigates , destroyers. And they can also easely kill cruisers. So what's the point of having anything in your fleet apart from fast stuff for capping and capital ship for killing everything ?

[hadesian]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

*shakes head*
Veteran of Starfa- I mean Starsector voice: NOPE.

I'd love to give your comment a constructive answer if it wasn't so god damn vague , i'm going to assume you disagree with me and that you think it will bring back bomber spam ( because that's the only reason you would include the fact that you have been playing the game for a long time.) if so , why ? Bombers have already been nerfed.

Or are you just saying " I don't agree " ?

I'm just saying, as someone seasoned through hours upon hours of gameplay, tons of time to think over my various fleets, plenty of experience with each weapon, that what you said is wrong. Removal of PD reduces the defensive capabilities of a capship to it's armour and shields, neither of which are useful to them as they are so slow. PD is a CRITICAL part of battleships, not merely because so much of it is converted into raw firepower, but because it's really one of the few things that set capships apart from cruisers - their ability to defend from monstrous onslaughts of fighters, frigates and destroyers. Removing PD should never be done.

Yep , as you said it yourself capital ship can kill fighters , frigates , destroyers. And they can also easely kill cruisers. So what's the point of having anything in your fleet apart from fast stuff for capping and capital ship for killing everything ?

Capships are slow. They fill specific roles, and fall prey easily to a skilled commander. If you design your own variants for cruisers, you can easily make one that can compete with capships not merely for kills but one on one combat. Fighters, frigates, destroyers - they can all kill a capship if they work together. A capship WILL one on one kill them, but think about it.


...IT'S A CAPITAL BATTLESHIP!

Of course it'll do it! It's design is massive amounts of either frontal or surround firepower.
I take cruisers, destroyers and frigates alongside my capships (if I even field them in my fleet) because otherwise I can't catch smaller vessels, quickly react to large clashes or lock down parts of the map. A capship answers a firepower need, a cruiser answers a mobility need etc.

[Zenos Ebeth]

Plus, it's still in alpha...it could change....oh and the idea to remove PD weapon slots from cap ships? That's just preposterous. Why wouldn't a capital ship be able to defend itself from bomber wings and all the tiny gnat's flying around and trying to destroy it? It's a capital ship...to expect anything less from it and suggest to remove PD weapons would be just extreme. It's huge, slow, with a huge hitbox, noticeable, powerful. That's what they are supposed to be, nothing less.

People have different view on what capital ships should be , some see them as godly behemoth on the battlefield , destroying everything in their path , that is the state they are in right now. I see them as powerful strategic assets capable of great destruction , but for it to be interesting , it should be weak to SOMETHING , otherwise they obsolete everything else and the game becomes boring. That's why i'm suggesting to remove most of the PD ( not all , as you seem to be suggesting i said.) so that capital ships can be harrased into destruction by small ships if sent in with no support. It should have enough pd to shoot down missiles , but not so much that entire fighter wings die in seconds to them.

*shakes head*
Veteran of Starfa- I mean Starsector voice: NOPE.

I'd love to give your comment a constructive answer if it wasn't so god damn vague , i'm going to assume you disagree with me and that you think it will bring back bomber spam ( because that's the only reason you would include the fact that you have been playing the game for a long time.) if so , why ? Bombers have already been nerfed.

Or are you just saying " I don't agree " ?

I'm just saying, as someone seasoned through hours upon hours of gameplay, tons of time to think over my various fleets, plenty of experience with each weapon, that what you said is wrong. Removal of PD reduces the defensive capabilities of a capship to it's armour and shields, neither of which are useful to them as they are so slow. PD is a CRITICAL part of battleships, not merely because so much of it is converted into raw firepower, but because it's really one of the few things that set capships apart from cruisers - their ability to defend from monstrous onslaughts of fighters, frigates and destroyers. Removing PD should never be done.

Yep , as you said it yourself capital ship can kill fighters , frigates , destroyers. And they can also easely kill cruisers. So what's the point of having anything in your fleet apart from fast stuff for capping and capital ship for killing everything ?

Capships are slow. They fill specific roles, and fall prey easily to a skilled commander. If you design your own variants for cruisers, you can easily make one that can compete with capships not merely for kills but one on one combat. Fighters, frigates, destroyers - they can all kill a capship if they work together. A capship WILL one on one kill them, but think about it.


...IT'S A CAPITAL BATTLESHIP!

Of course it'll do it! It's design is massive amounts of either frontal or surround firepower.
I take cruisers, destroyers and frigates alongside my capships (if I even field them in my fleet) because otherwise I can't catch smaller vessels, quickly react to large clashes or lock down parts of the map. A capship answers a firepower need, a cruiser answers a mobility need etc.

Well , i don't see how you can have mobility problems when capturing nav buoys makes your cap ship insanely fast. Also maybe we aren't talking about the same thing there , but what i'm saying is overpowered is blobbing up of cap ship to methodically crush anything on the map. So i don't see how the cap ships could be too slow to react to clashes when they are the ones creating them. Unless you do like the ai and spread your forces around the map , which is ineffective anyway.

And in the chance that the some of the enemy fleet retreats , they will be badly damaged and you can generally just cath up to them again and finish them off.

They fill specific roles, and fall prey easily to a skilled commander.

Yes , capital ships fill the VERY  specific role of "killing everything" , also saying they are weak to a skilled commander is moot since the game will always be player vs AI. This is about making the game challenging by removing cheese tactics.

[Hypilein]

I think the discussion is starting to spin in circles. As Dr. Death said there is quite a subjective part to the whole affair. I think someone should just make a rebalancing TC mod with all the changes that are possible as a mod added. Phase ships can easily be buffed without altering the mechanics and adding charges or something else to the hyperions phase shift should be trivial to a skilled modder. Same goes with cutting Point Defense on Cap ships.

Then we'd at least have a decent point of discussion.

[Zenos Ebeth]

I think the discussion is starting to spin in circles. As Dr. Death said there is quite a subjective part to the whole affair. I think someone should just make a rebalancing TC mod with all the changes that are possible as a mod added. Phase ships can easily be buffed without altering the mechanics and adding charges or something else to the hyperions phase shift should be trivial to a skilled modder. Same goes with cutting Point Defense on Cap ships.

Then we'd at least have a decent point of discussion.

Agreed. It would be interesting to create a mod that adds the changes discussed in this thread and see how it changes the game.

[ValkyriaL]

No they can't, a cruiser can stand up very well to a capital and even kill it, the capital can easily obliterate fighters and frigates. that's a given, if it can't, there no point in having the capital ship. a destroyer with strike weapons can turn a overloaded capital in to a pile of scraps in seconds, you have many ship classes in your fleet because capital ships are very expensive to deploy, and you are only given enough objectives to deploy max 2 - 3 capital ships overall, which will easily be destroyer by the massive number of fighters/frigates/destroyers and missiles coming their way at the same deployment cost.

you can't say that capital ships can kill everything in the PLAYERS hand, because the player have character skills, which is extremely overpowered BECAUSE the AI has no answer to it >yet<.

EDIT: holy *** so many comments while i wrote this O.O.

[Dr. Death[Lexx]]

I think the discussion is starting to spin in circles. As Dr. Death said there is quite a subjective part to the whole affair. I think someone should just make a rebalancing TC mod with all the changes that are possible as a mod added. Phase ships can easily be buffed without altering the mechanics and adding charges or something else to the hyperions phase shift should be trivial to a skilled modder. Same goes with cutting Point Defense on Cap ships.

Then we'd at least have a decent point of discussion.

But that's the problem...the ones who disagree would try and see the difference, not changing their subjective opinion on this, it doesn't take a lot to actually think about a given scenario when you know the numbers. It would benefit and satisfy the ones who agree on said suggestions. You'd just be making a sharper line between those subjective matters...more distinguishable. Those mixed feelings about the suggestions and mechanics would then be just clearer, nothing else, I believe.
Otherwise...why not...ask a modder to create all of this stuff and let's see if it fits or if it doesn't.

[Zenos Ebeth]

Well instead of arguing the same thing over and over i'm going to try to get a modder to make said mod , then we can make conclusions on how these suggestion change the game.

Dr.death , you can't say that something isn't worth dicussing because it's subjective (atleast that's what i think you were hintign at) even if everyone has a different view on how the game should be , it's by experimenting that you can find the middle ground that produces a game that the most people find entertaining. And these kind of discussion (well , it kind of devolved at the end.) Aree good because they might spawn ideas that end up makign the game better (to most people atleast , and even then , it's not like starsector has millions upon millions of follower , i think most of us here have somewhat similar preferences since this is a pretty niche genre and if you are on these forum chances are you enjoy it. Of course we will always argue about the finer details of what we think the game should be.)

[hadesian]

Well instead of arguing the same thing over and over i'm going to try to get a modder to make said mod , then we can make conclusions on how these suggestion change the game.

Dr.death , you can't say that something isn't worth dicussing because it's subjective (atleast that's what i think you were hintign at) even if everyone has a different view on how the game should be , it's by experimenting that you can find the middle ground that produces a game that the most people find entertaining. And these kind of discussion (well , it kind of devolved at the end.) Aree good because they might spawn ideas that end up makign the game better (to most people atleast , and even then , it's not like starsector has millions upon millions of follower , i think most of us here have somewhat similar preferences since this is a pretty niche genre and if you are on these forum chances are you enjoy it. Of course we will always argue about the finer details of what we think the game should be.)

Currently, we're at that middle ground.