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[qwortec]

I have only put about 6-7 hours into SS so far but I'm really loving a lot of it.  I played countless hours of Star Control 1&2 as a kid and this is scratching that itch in a big way.

Here's my problem.  I'm one of those weirdos that uses ESDF instead of WASD (more pinky clicking choices), so I always end up rebinding keys in pretty much every game.  I went to adjust the strafe + mouse centering (default shift-a and shift-d) over to shift-w and shift-r because I need to move it over a key and it felt weird to have to change from pressing the strafe button to pressing shift+the turn button to strafe while locking my direction to the mouse cursor.  Problem is that those keybindings don't work in the game.  Not sure why, but they don't function.

That's not the real issue though.

Right now I'm trying to rotate my ship with a small firing arc and very fast turning speed.  Huge problem because even just a light tap on the rotate key will spin my ship way past my target.  There's no room for finesse.  Even with the default keys it's awkward to shift-click the turn keys, and I find that the mechanic is pretty finicky (sometimes it works, but if you're accelerating at the same time it doesn't like to engage).

This leads me to a suggestion.  Why not ditch the shift-button to do the strafe-and-lock thing and instead just make a key that locks your ship to the cursor?  Then you could set the key to a mouse button (4 or 5) and could quickly toggle on this very useful function and reduce the complexity.  When you press the "lock to cursor" button, it would override the rotate keys, but not strafe keys.  So when needed you just hover over your target, hit the button and use the normal strafe keys.  OR, and this is the best part, even if you're not strafing but you want to be able to adjust your ship's direction minute amounts you could just hit the button and use the mouse cursor to adjust your rotation.   

[Alex]

Hi!

I have only put about 6-7 hours into SS so far but I'm really loving a lot of it.  I played countless hours of Star Control 1&2 as a kid and this is scratching that itch in a big way.

Thank you, glad the game delivers on that for you. SC1&2 are both big inspirations for me

Here's my problem.  I'm one of those weirdos that uses ESDF instead of WASD (more pinky clicking choices), so I always end up rebinding keys in pretty much every game.  I went to adjust the strafe + mouse centering (default shift-a and shift-d) over to shift-w and shift-r because I need to move it over a key and it felt weird to have to change from pressing the strafe button to pressing shift+the turn button to strafe while locking my direction to the mouse cursor.  Problem is that those keybindings don't work in the game.  Not sure why, but they don't function.

Your self-admitted weirdness aside (hey, I didn't say it!), I did try these bindings just now and they seem to be working fine for me.

Are you continuing to hold down shift after tapping shift-w or shift-r? The "turn to cursor" mode will stay engaged as long as shift (or whatever other modifier key(s) is/are assigned to that control) is held down.

and I find that the mechanic is pretty finicky (sometimes it works, but if you're accelerating at the same time it doesn't like to engage).

Hmm. That sounds like it might be a keyboard issue. The most common setup I've seen (i.e. most keyboards I've encountered) only detect up to two out of four adjacent (in a square) keys being down simultaneously.

For example, out of QWAS, it could detect AW or AS, but not AWS. If the keyboard doesn't support detecting at least two keys here, then there are going to be issues controlling... well, most any game with a WASD style system. Actually, I wonder if it not detecting shift-w/r might not be related.

Could also be that you're occasionally pressing down an extra key by accident (i.e. intending to press shift, W, and E, and also leaning on a D by accident, or some such.) Or maybe the keyboard changes how much it can detect while modifier keys are down. Really, just guessing here, but I'm fairly certain that whatever the cause for it being finicky is, it's not Starsector-specific.

This leads me to a suggestion.  Why not ditch the shift-button to do the strafe-and-lock thing and instead just make a key that locks your ship to the cursor?  Then you could set the key to a mouse button (4 or 5) and could quickly toggle on this very useful function and reduce the complexity.  When you press the "lock to cursor" button, it would override the rotate keys, but not strafe keys.  So when needed you just hover over your target, hit the button and use the normal strafe keys.  OR, and this is the best part, even if you're not strafing but you want to be able to adjust your ship's direction minute amounts you could just hit the button and use the mouse cursor to adjust your rotation.   

You know, I actually tried that exact thing early on and it didn't work out very well. First of all, it requires a prominent UI element to show the state it's in - I found myself being confused by it even after using it for a while. Second, having it be a toggle is less immediate than having it react when a key is pressed down, as it is now. That may sound like a small thing, but it makes a big difference in the perceived responsiveness of the controls, and adds extra presses to boot. You can't just toggle it on for a split second and turn it off when you're done making that minute adjustment - it feels like a lot more work.

[Gothars]

Hi and welcome qwortec

Problem is that those keybindings don't work in the game.

Just tried it, works without a problem here.

Right now I'm trying to rotate my ship with a small firing arc and very fast turning speed.  Huge problem because even just a light tap on the rotate key will spin my ship way past my target.  There's no room for finesse.  Even with the default keys it's awkward to shift-click the turn keys, and I find that the mechanic is pretty finicky (sometimes it works, but if you're accelerating at the same time it doesn't like to engage).

What is the name of the ship's class? There are two values for turning, turn speed and turn ac/deceleration. If you fly a ship with high turn speed but low turn deceleration, it is probably deliberately designed to be hard to control, not a shortcoming of the game. Especially some ships from mods follow this idea.

Generally the right way to aim at small targets with a small firing arc is to use the turn-to-cursor function, not the manual turning. You can bind that to a mouse button even now, so you just have to press it for half second to perfect your aiming.

This leads me to a suggestion.  Why not ditch the shift-button to do the strafe-and-lock thing and instead just make a key that locks your ship to the cursor?  Then you could set the key to a mouse button (4 or 5) and could quickly toggle on this very useful function and reduce the complexity.  When you press the "lock to cursor" button, it would override the rotate keys, but not strafe keys.  So when needed you just hover over your target, hit the button and use the normal strafe keys.  OR, and this is the best part, even if you're not strafing but you want to be able to adjust your ship's direction minute amounts you could just hit the button and use the mouse cursor to adjust your rotation.  

Mh. There's actually already an option to toggle auto-turning, but it's hidden in settings.json. To be able to just switch it on and off with a button seems to do no harm.
Anyway there's no need to override the turn keys or ditch the shift method, it has its own benefits.

[qwortec]

Hey guys.  Thanks for the quick replies.  

So I went back into the game and tested things out again.  The problem I was having with the system being "finicky" is that the lock to cursor doesn't kick in until you press SHIFT and the other key, but then it stays locked on even if you're just holding shift.  This makes the system feel a little janky.  I think I see how this works in practice though: you press and hold shift, push then while holding it you can strafe side to side and move back and forth while keeping your ship's bow locked to the cursor (L2C). The problem with this is that the SHIFT key is really acting as the L2C button but in order to get it functioning you need to strafe at least once.  Testing this out I find that I just want to L2C without needing to initiate a strafe first, it's an unnecessary step.  

You know, I actually tried that exact thing early on and it didn't work out very well. First of all, it requires a prominent UI element to show the state it's in - I found myself being confused by it even after using it for a while. Second, having it be a toggle is less immediate than having it react when a key is pressed down, as it is now. That may sound like a small thing, but it makes a big difference in the perceived responsiveness of the controls, and adds extra presses to boot. You can't just toggle it on for a split second and turn it off when you're done making that minute adjustment - it feels like a lot more work

I think you misunderstood what I meant with my L2C button suggestion.  I didn't mean to suggest that it be a toggle button, but a push and hold button (I agree a toggle would be complicated and weird, like toggling crouch in FPS games).  As long as the button is pressed the ship will L2C.  I have no problem with the shift+key method, but I would personally rather just skip the 2 keybindings step and have a single push-to-lock-to-cursor button.  If it was an option in the keybindings that would be perfect; I could use that and just turn off the shift-strafe keys.

EDIT: as a side note, the shift+key is problematic for me and other ESDF users because SHIFT isn't a very viable key for pressing and holding.  Usually I would use "A" as that key, but I can't bind A+W to strafe left with L2C.  Just another reason why having a separate key would be great.

ALSO, I forgot to add another potential improvement to add to key bindings, which is to have weapon groups be fireable with different keys instead of just activated and fired with the normal firing button.  If you've ever played mechwarrior games you'll know what I'm talking about.  You can create weapon groups and bind them to fire with different keys so that you can very quickly fire off different weapon systems without additional button presses.  E.g. fire group 1, select group 2, fire, select group 3, fire, select group 1 again, fire (7 button presses).  Instead it's fire group 1, fire group 2, fire group 3, fire group 1 again (4 presses).  This makes a huge difference.  I already find myself not using certain weapon systems because it's troublesome to select the group and fire then go back to my first group while maneuvering, adjusting shields, etc. etc.

[FloW]

ALSO, I forgot to add another potential improvement to add to key bindings, which is to have weapon groups be fireable with different keys instead of just activated and fired with the normal firing button.  If you've ever played mechwarrior games you'll know what I'm talking about.  You can create weapon groups and bind them to fire with different keys so that you can very quickly fire off different weapon systems without additional button presses.  E.g. fire group 1, select group 2, fire, select group 3, fire, select group 1 again, fire (7 button presses).  Instead it's fire group 1, fire group 2, fire group 3, fire group 1 again (4 presses).  This makes a huge difference.  I already find myself not using certain weapon systems because it's troublesome to select the group and fire then go back to my first group while maneuvering, adjusting shields, etc. etc.

This was actually already suggested here: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5841.0

Now about the lock to cursor thing:
Usually if I start attacking (and aiming) with fast turning ships, I also start strafing. The shift key works just fine, because as soon as I need L2C, I also need to strafe.
However I also need it in fast turning ships to actually control the ship. In that case a single key would work better.

[Alex]

I think you misunderstood what I meant with my L2C button suggestion.  I didn't mean to suggest that it be a toggle button, but a push and hold button (I agree a toggle would be complicated and weird, like toggling crouch in FPS games).  As long as the button is pressed the ship will L2C.  I have no problem with the shift+key method, but I would personally rather just skip the 2 keybindings step and have a single push-to-lock-to-cursor button.  If it was an option in the keybindings that would be perfect; I could use that and just turn off the shift-strafe keys.

Ah, I see - I think what threw me off is the word "toggle", but that could be used for either approach.


In any case, it's a fair point, guys. But, I have to weigh that against adding an extra key to the keybindings, and there's already a lot of them. Personally, I find shift + tap a/d to be natural... but I've spent quite a bit of time using it, and I'm also not using ESDF, which would likely make it a touch more awkward.


As far as firing a group immediately, that's on my list of things to take a look at. If all goes well, it'd most likely be configurable in the weapon groups dialog, in an extra row - like the default autofire mode is now. If on, selecting the group would instead fire its weapons. (So, no new controls, and also, likely no autofire for a group that's set to work this way.)

[FloW]

Well, Shift is kind of a toggle-button. I don't really think it would change a lot if we went from "Shift+A/D" to "push Shift to turn to cursor".
As far as keys go, make shift the default, and as qwortec mentioned: he would use A (which works, I guess).

I honestly think it will change nothing (maybe a little) gameplay-wise, but will make it easier to use strafing with buttons other than Shift.

[Alex]

Shift is also used for autofire toggling. You definitely *don't* want "turn to mouse" to activate when you're just trying to turn some PD on or off.

I'm not saying there isn't any awkwardness. What I am saying is that I'm having a tough time finding a solution that's better across the board


One approach might be to use ctrl-# for autofire bindings, but that's definitely more awkward to press than shift-#. Now, I don't know how often that's actually used mid-combat... might be worth a closer look, anyway.

[qwortec]

I think your concern over having too many keys is legitimate, but I'm sure there's a good solution.

In reality, SS doesn't have that many keybindings for combat.  I play a lot of MechWarrior:Online (MWO), which has so many key bindings that it's difficult to set them all up.  Everyone does manage though...  There are 5 weapon group firing buttons alone.  Throttle up/down/stop, zoom, thermals, nightvision, power up, override, lock arms to torso, lock torso to legs, lock legs to torso, etc. etc.  Some options you chose not to use, but having the options there are really nice. SS only really has a few.

Using multiple buttons like SHIFT-Click and CRTL-Click is not optimal.  For those of us who use other keys, you limit our ability to rebind.  Also, there is no real advantage to using the [shift-turn = L2C while strafing] over [shift = L2C and then using the normal strafe button].  Having to hold a button and click an existing key to autofire will be really awkward and kind of defeat the purpose. 

There are 5 weapon groups so make them selectable via 6-0 and make them fire (while keeping the current group selected) by pressing 1-5.  This keeps both options open, but puts the buttons you need speedy access to at easy reach and the ones you can take your time for a little further away.  Realistically people will only use 2 or 3 click-to-fire weapon groups at a time, so they will rebind those keys somewhere easy. 

[catmorbid]

Hi, I'm new here and registered to pitch in that so far the lack of a proper, intuitive, lock-on-cursor controlling of ships is my personal, most significant point of annoyance thus far. Otherwise, I'm loving the game.

Another game did the controls the other way around by making the ship by default lock to cursor, but when you press shift, the lock is temporarily disabled and you can now control turrets without changing ship heading. For me this is far more intuitive and to control than the the current way. If that doesn't work for you, for some reason, then just change it to what someone described above, so that a simple shift press locks to cursor without needing to press a or d first.

Any other conflicts should be be countered by simply allowing flexible keybindings customization, which is already pretty much the case.

Another idea regarding an on-off toggle button: When using lock-to-cursor you could change the cursor to a targeting reticule instead of the standard pointer, to easily visualise which targeting mode is used. The cursor is always on the player's focus anyway, so I think it would be pretty intuitive and solve any confusion issues.

[TJJ]

So:

 - more actions (even if some are unused by default)
 - every action and axis control needs to be rebindable to any one or more keys and/or key modifiers.

[Taverius]

Just chiming in to say I have turn on Q/E and stare-with-mousepoint on A/D and its pretty good.

However, what I'd really like is a hold-toggle for autoturn I can bind to a mouse button, and a full toggle on some remote key (F11 or something the like) so if I command some ship that works best with a different default in a battle I can switch easily. The hold-toggle would always invert the current autoturn setting while held.

catmorbid's idea of a Metroid-like lock-strafe is intruguing however, but that would need playtesting

[qwortec]

So:

 - more actions (even if some are unused by default)
 - every action and axis control needs to be rebindable to any one or more keys and/or key modifiers.

I'm always a fan of more customization/options.

[Decer304]

We have to have customisable keybindings. Everyone has different preferences with keybindings, so the game should cater for them. I remember changing like half the controls in Darksiders 1 cos it felt funny.

[phyrex]

We have to have customisable keybindings. Everyone has different preferences with keybindings, so the game should cater for them. I remember changing like half the controls in Darksiders 1 cos it felt funny.

there's already customizable keybinding...