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[Wyvern]

Light: unsure.

And those light slots are where the Dominator pulls ahead of the Eagle; fill those front three turrets with light needlers, use dual flak in the mediums, and fit a Mk IX and a hellbore.  Missiles to taste; I tend to prefer 2x salamander and 1x torpedo launcher.  (Side turrets get 2x LAG, then 2x railgun, then 2x vulcan in the rear two slots; armament that's tuned more to shutting down flanking fighters and frigates than it is for missile defense.)

I've always liked the Dominator but I remember a time when the consensus was that it was pretty trash. When did it start to become viewed as a sold ship by most folks?

For me, this happened when it got burn drive; that change on its own turned it from a flying brick that was basically just a sitting duck for anything with mobility, to a flying brick that can charge up and smash some faces in - or just flat-out run away when something -does- get behind it.

[Dri]

What vanilla ship could possibly be classed as "S"?

If the Paragon wasn't then the only other ships I can think of would be the Afflictor and Hyperion. Maybe the Dover with its super powerful ship system.

[Megas]

In early 0.8, with stronger Remnant fighters and better fighter skills, Astral flown by player with six original Sparks (with two burst PD instead of one per fighter) and (stronger) fighter skills was an S or S-.  It could almost solo the simulator, and it could truly solo a full-powered Remnant battlestation (without extra ships to add more ECM).  Today, B+ is probably about right.  Now, there are no vanilla ships that are truly S rank.  Paragon with the right loadout and skills comes close, but it is not an S.

Paragon is A+.  With Combat skills and quad lances, it can solo most of the simulator (25 ships left before I made a blunder and died shortly after peak performance ran out).  I do not know what happened to SIM AI, but it did not seem quite as cowardly as early 0.8 (although it is still more cowardly than pre-0.8 ).  This time, I stacked Gunnery Implants 3, Electronic Warfare 1, and ECM Package to maximize range advantage.  Paragon is probably the most powerful vanilla ship today.  Astral used to be better, but not anymore.

How often do you guys under gun your ships?

Occasionally, but not often.  Times when I do it.
* Tactical Laser or Burst PD instead of Graviton Beam or Heavy Burst Laser.
* Low OP one-shot missiles or small Salamanders in medium missile mounts.
* Medium missile pods in heavy missile mounts.
* If railguns and light needlers were much more common, I could use them instead of Arbalest or Heavy AC in medium mounts.
* Without Loadout Design 3, most of my ships have at least one weapon mount empty, usually missiles.

[ANGRYABOUTELVES]

What vanilla ship could possibly be classed as "S"?

If the Paragon wasn't then the only other ships I can think of would be the Afflictor and Hyperion. Maybe the Dover with its super powerful ship system.

Probably the Tempest. The only thing holding the Tempest back from being incredibly obviously overpowered is that you can't get enough of them to build a fleet around. I'm not sure there's anything in the game that can take on its own DP weight in Tempests. Maybe a Paragon?

[Philder]

The two things which make Dominators worthwhile are access to large ballistics, very high armor, high OP, and burn drive to get to the fight quicker than the Venture. If all you need is a tank, Venture is much more cost effective. Just fill it with tank mods and PD. The Dominator, however, can be tank or damage.

The Dominator is definitely not a tool for killing speedy targets. Which is perfectly fine. It has access to two large ballistics slots. That makes it great at taking out cruisers, capitals and slower destroyers. Aux Thrusters is still a must IMO, however. It's absolutely necessary for tracking ships with its large ballistics. As far as kinetic damage goes, IMO large kinetics aren't worth it when small and medium have such better alternatives. Only exception is Gauss for a pure sniper ship, but there's no Vanilla ship which can really optimize the cost efficiency of the Gauss to the same degree as other weapons.

Since medium is required for PD, however, you're left with using small slots for kinetic....which is perfect since small ballistic PD is terrible.

Why I like the Dominator is because it has many viable options for the large slots. Hellbore is always great for making armor evaporate and keeping flux demands down. Hephaestus is a great all-arounder, though rather expensive against well shielded targets. Devastator is a mixed bag of effectiveness, but much cheaper on the flux and with a very good PD capability. Mjolrnir is another great all-arounder, though with different areas of strength.

And it also has the lowtech benefit of high OP that I rarely see others take advantage of; it's OKAY to leave the less effective mounts empty! I nearly always leave two of the side slots empty. In fact, for my ranged damage support Dominator, I'll leave all small mounts empty so I can get a Converted Hangar, flux mods, and max vents to support 2x Gauss and 2x HVD.

[Goumindong]

Light needlers and railguns are both ultra rare and too expensive to fire at 800 range. Unless you’re going to drop the mark x or hellbore.

Like, it’s OK if you’re going to plow into something and overpower it but the Dominator has 450 dissipation and 1 Shield/damage. You cannot afford to fire your full compliment and that makes the small or large guns superfluous. You can charge in an kill ships smaller than you but against any decent force you’re going to get wrecked.

You’ve got 141 OP of 190 on weapons. That is a lot for something that should need a load of equipment to not cap out and die

I don’t disagree that in some instances the suicide Dominator is valuable. But that isn’t a general thing. And I wouldn’t be putting light needlers on it. It would be light dual autocannons.

[Megas]

As least for player vs. Tempests, he can try to rush to the wall then wait until the Tempests run out of gas.  Large enough ships with more peak performance than anything can always win against at least some opponents (if not the whole fleet) by outlasting them, then mop up after the enemy reaches 0% CR first.

Aside from that, Tempests are strong for frigates.

Hyperion is too expensive to be an S.  With weaker skills and possibly moot objectives, I am not sure it even qualifies as an A anymore.  It is not much use as an AI ship anymore.  It is still good as a playership, but it has too many major weaknesses to be truly broken/overpowered.

Re: Dominator
Dominator is pretty good for a clunker.  I tend to use two Mark IXs and two Heavy Mortars, send it to battle, and let it do its thing.  If it dies, who cares, just recover more and slap more open market weapons on it.

[Megas]

Question:  What makes Aurora A+?  I can see Aurora being better than other cruisers, but what makes it overpowered enough to warrant pluses for potential S grade?  Does it need lots of bonuses from character skills to blow away everything?

[Dri]

I haven't used an Aurora since the weapon slot change-up, loss of 3,000 flux capacity and the change to Plasma Jets ship system. So I'm not sure.

Before the changes I'd give it a 360 shield and have it basically run in, pop High Energy Focus and delete a few ships with Heavy Blaster spam, then skeedaddle out with its decent speed. The huge flux capacity and good shield really let it tank and squeeze off some good Heavy Blaster time.

[Megas]

I tried unskilled Aurora against a group of five destroyers.  While Aurora is fast enough to avoid getting caught, it did not utterly dominate the fight.  The AI kind of turtles up and deathballs.  Occasionally I pick off an isolated target, but much of the time, they covered each other.  Eventually, I needed to resort to Hardened Subsystems to outlast them all.

Still, better than unskilled Eagle or Dominator because they were too slow to avoid getting surrounded (and not powerful enough to blast everyone) and picked off by five or so destroyers after losing engines.  Admittedly, I did not attempt a waiting game.  Things might have turned out different had I simply turned tail and ran to the wall before stalling.  But... that means they cannot fight at all until enemy CR times out.  At least Aurora is fast enough to pick off a lone Enforcer or Condor if it gets separated from the deathball.

Most capitals under player control would crush five destroyers.

[FooF]

I'd agree with the Aurora assessment. It's not that it dominates the competition so much as that nothing else has the combination of speed, flux stats, and damage. I've found the best loadouts aren't really all that damaging so much as that I can reliably gear the Aurora to have near-parity with weapon draw and vents. The ability to fire indefinitely means you win virtually every flux battle outside of say, a Paragon. Add to it that the Aurora is ridiculously fast and maneuverable means that it's very easy to escape bad situations or engage targets of opportunity.

Even when I have access to capitals, the Aurora is my #1 flagship. Only Hyperions can outrun me and only Paragons can outlast me (or to put it more accurately, shrug off my fire enough that I can't get into some advantageous position).

[ANGRYABOUTELVES]

I tried unskilled Aurora against a group of five destroyers.  While Aurora is fast enough to avoid getting caught, it did not utterly dominate the fight.  The AI kind of turtles up and deathballs.  Occasionally I pick off an isolated target, but much of the time, they covered each other.  Eventually, I needed to resort to Hardened Subsystems to outlast them all.

Did you try using 2x Medium Sabot Pods, 4x Small Annihilator Pods, and 2x Heavy Blasters? You pick off the most isolated destroyer with a single burst of 4 Sabots, follow up with the linked Annihilators, and finish with the Heavy Blasters. Repeat. Cruisers need two bursts of 4 sabots and a little more time with the annihilators and HBs, but they'll also die quickly enough. You'll certainly run out of missiles eventually, but not before you've quickly and decisively removed 6 Cruisers or 12 Destroyers from the enemy fleet and potentially won the battle right there. Even then you've still got 2x Heavy Blasters to kill things with, which is a very respectable armament attached to an extremely fast ship.

Make sure you put front shield on it, so the 360° shield will cover your engines from being shot out by Claws or Thunders. The single glaring weakness of the Aurora is that Claws exist, but you can deal with that simply by putting Shield Conversion - Front on it.

[Megas]

I finally figured out what Aurora needed.  Just a ton of dissipation and either a ton of capacitors or Hardened Shields.  Then grab two Heavy Blasters and wail away.  In other words, what Medusa with old skills used to get away with.  Annoyingly, this means several weapon mounts were left empty just so Aurora can scrape enough OP for the flux stats and other hullmods it needs.  Also, Hardened Subsystems as a last resort.  (Had unskilled Aurora take on SIM Eagle, Aurora, and Dominator at the same time.  Enemy Aurora dies first.  The other two could not be separated until their CR timed out, then Aurora took out Eagle, then Dominator.)

Even so, how does Aurora get A+?  It seems like if player does not know what Aurora needs, either Aurora runs for dear life while in a stalemate or loses the flux war and dies.  If player knows how to equip and use Aurora, then yes, it is noticeably above the other cruisers.

* * *

After I hit preview before posting...

@ ANGRYABOUTELVES: Is this with an unskilled ship?  Also, no PD?

[ANGRYABOUTELVES]

I tend to do all my simulator testing with unskilled ships, because sim ships don't get officers. The Aurora doesn't need a lot of PD because it's fast, but 5 PD lasers in the small turrets work well enough for fending off interceptors and salamanders. Alternatively you could put some Ion Cannons on the front to further lock down anything you're shooting with the HBs, and they also tend to send fighters spinning off into the distance with flamed out engines.

Sabots short-circuit the flux war. Being a missile boat is still the Aurora's true strength.

[Morgan Rue]

The Odyssey is one of the only ships in the game that can effectively use Plasma Cannons. With a pair of Plasma Cannons and an otherwise not noteworthy lodout, it is capable of outright destroying lighter cruisers and heavily punishing heavy cruisers or capital ships with high flux thanks to High Energy Focus. The AI is reasonably capable of executing enemy cruisers with it, while being relatively safe because of it's high mobility. Even with two Plasma Cannons, it is capable of firing multiple volleys in succession thanks to it's capital flux systems. However, it does falter against other capital ships without support.

A Plasma Cannon Odyssey is probably the best choice if you need to destroy cruisers, and is capable in most situations when supported, but outside of destroying cruisers it is likely outclassed.