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[AxleMC131]

Sorry to bother the Devs once again, I'm sure they're getting frustrated at incessant posts demanding info on the 0.8 update, and need to get back to work on the 0.8 update ( ) but I noticed this out of the corner of my eye while reading through HELMUT's old post from 2016 effectively reviewing ships and sticking Safety Overrides on whatever was around at the time... *inhales* AND I had a question. As in the title:

Why is the Conquest the only ship in the game with a 1.4 efficiency shield?

I can't believe I'd never noticed it before, but the stock "ship_data.csv" confirms it! Every other ship in the game [with a shield] has a shield efficiency (amount of flux generated per damage point taken) between 0.6 (efficient) and 1.2 (inefficient) in steps of 0.2, and each division has a fair number of ships with that level.

It goes without saying that the Conquest's horribly inefficient 1.4 flux-per-damage explains a lot of people's problems with it - as well as why I was convinced for a long time that its problem was a lack of venting capability (it decidedly isn't...) - but rather than complain, I'm super-curious to understand why that might be?

And just so no-one takes this the wrong way, I'm aware a lot of things are changing in 0.8. This isn't a call for yet another change, this a simple, honest query of "Why? Why was this decision made at the time it was made?"

[orost]

Because the Conquest has extremely good flux stats for its tech tier and size to be able to make good use out of its multitude of weapons slots, which would make its shield far too good if it had reasonable efficiency. It's supposed to be a glass cannon.

Shield efficiency is only half the picture for shield strength in practice, you need to look at flux stats too.

[Megas]

I read that before, but it does not feel like that in practice.  Unskilled, its flux stats are mediocre.  With max skills, its flux stats are good but not great, provided its shield does not take hits.  When shield takes hits, it will lose the flux war fast.  Poor shield, poor-to-mediocre PD, and cruiser-grade durability makes the Conquest incredibly squishy for its class.  Conquest should either get a better shield or upgrade the energy mounts to hybrid or ballistic so it can use far superior Vulcan and Flak for PD instead of wimpy beams.

[PerturbedPug]

It makes more sense when you read the description. It says that the Conquest was designed with a philosophy of offensive tech always being better than defensive tech, so why give a ship unnecessarily good defenses? Just give it a ton of firepower and mobility and destroy the enemy before they can even fire back.

[Wyvern]

Why was this decision made at the time it was made?

The Conquest used to have... I think it was 1.0 shields?  Would have to go check.  The change to 1.4 efficiency came with a similar increase to both flux capacity and flux dissipation.  In short, it didn't change the ship's overall ability to soak incoming damage, but dramatically improved its ability to support outgoing damage.

I read that before, but it does not feel like that in practice.

Again, the key is to compare its stats now to what it had before.  Yes, it doesn't feel like it's got a really great shield now - but it didn't have a really great shield before, either, just a mostly-adequate one, and prior to getting its stats changed, it couldn't really support even a single broadside's worth of weaponry.

upgrade the energy mounts to hybrid or ballistic so it can use far superior Vulcan and Flak for PD instead of wimpy beams.

Burst PD is way better than vulcans, to the point where using the energy slots on burst PD means you don't even need flak.  Swapping to hybrid or ballistic would just lead to people mounting one or two flak and using the rest of the slots on light needlers or railguns, so I don't think it's a good idea.

I do recommend using heavy burst PD in the medium energy turrets, though; with ITU/DTC installed, it's capable of shooting down sabots and MIRV missiles before they trigger their second stage.

[Thaago]

Other people have explained it, but here is my take: Shield efficiency is the offense:defense ratio of the flux statistics of the ship. Or, playing with the numbers,

Defense = Flux/(shield efficiency)
Offense = Flux

...

upgrade the energy mounts to hybrid or ballistic so it can use far superior Vulcan and Flak for PD instead of wimpy beams.

Burst PD is way better than vulcans, to the point where using the energy slots on burst PD means you don't even need flak.  Swapping to hybrid or ballistic would just lead to people mounting one or two flak and using the rest of the slots on light needlers or railguns, so I don't think it's a good idea.

I do recommend using heavy burst PD in the medium energy turrets, though; with ITU/DTC installed, it's capable of shooting down sabots and MIRV missiles before they trigger their second stage.

Heresy! I do agree - burst PD are pretty good... but they cost a lot more OP and are very rare (perhaps it was just my latest Nexelerin playthrough, but I actually couldn't find any energy PD for a long time). I haven't flown a conquest in a while, but I remember liking IPDAI + Tacs + turret gyros for large area of effect PD. For the mediums I'm fond of taking Heavy Blasters or Phase Lances so that any annoying kiter than tries to get too close gets swatted.

[orost]

@Megas Conquest has the second best flux stats in the game, behind only Paragon. That's not mediocre.

I've had a lot of success using the Conquest, it's an extremely powerful ship in the player's hands.

[Megas]

Being second-best at flux stats does not mean much if the ship still loses the flux war.  Unskilled, Conquest has trouble supporting heavy weapons for long, and it takes ages to vent despite second-best flux stats.  With max skills, it gets better.

I've had a lot of success using the Conquest, it's an extremely powerful ship in the player's hands.

Onslaught and Paragon are even more powerful.  I tried all four of the fighting capitals (i.e., no Astral or civilians).  While all four can solo the simulator, Onslaught and Paragon are the best at it, and both can do it without taking hull damage.  Conquest has the firepower (rivaling Onslaught), but lacks the defenses of Onslaught and Paragon.

Since Conquest is nearly as slow and expensive to use as battleships, but does not perform as well, I may get one then throw it into storage as a trophy.

And I would not trust the AI to pilot a Conquest (and probably Odyssey) competently.  AI can handle Onslaught and Paragon decently.

[Linnis]

Conquest is definitely weaker then its counterparts. Its only redeeming quality was that it was slightly faster in players hands with old skills system that allowed the player to pilot it can get around the battlefield to obliterate things faster.

[Camael]

1. The Conquest is designated a battle-cruiser (to my knowledge), not a battleship, it is not supposed to be "on par" with the two vanilla battleships. It sticks closely to successful historical battlecruiser-doctrine - outfight anything it can not outrun, outrun anything it can not outfight. The speed really makes a difference here. In this game, that means it's a designated glass cannon. Not as glassy due to the size and durability associated with it being a capital, but yeah. Maybe we will eventually see a real midline tech battleship with the new 0.8 faction?

2. The Conquest is by far my favourite capital. I enjoy glass cannons (my first love in this game was a sunder...) and they tend to be the most fun in player hands. Yes, a single slip up facing one of the fat guys (onslaught or paragon) will pretty much mean game over but it just handles so much better (or is this just my subjective experience?) that with a bit of skill I usually manage to take on absolutely everything with little to no damage taken. It's a matter of playstyle. It's definitely not a support/ai ship. But I am really glad it is in there the way it is, because this is a game, and fun hulls that might just not be perfectly reasonable number-crunch-wise should have their place.

[Mysterhay]

Yeah, I don't get the 1.4 shield efficiency either. I mean, in SS+ it's 1.2 and that feels just fine (obviously other changes in that mod too).

With the changes coming in 0.8 though it should be gaining more OP than the other cap ships due to the built in hull mod reducing the OP cost of large ballistics, and default +1 burn speed. So arguably nothing to stop extra investment into hardened shields or other hull mods/caps...

Time will tell.

[PCCL]

Hmm, to reinforce the battlecruiser doctrine, i wonder if it's worth considering to bring its burn level up 1 so it's on par with the cruisers, or would that possibly make it too strong?

[Dri]

Already done—view patch notes. Conquest and Odyssey will have Burn 8 in 0.8a patch.

[Megas]

1. The Conquest is designated a battle-cruiser (to my knowledge), not a battleship, it is not supposed to be "on par" with the two vanilla battleships. It sticks closely to successful historical battlecruiser-doctrine - outfight anything it can not outrun, outrun anything it can not outfight. The speed really makes a difference here. In this game, that means it's a designated glass cannon. Not as glassy due to the size and durability associated with it being a capital, but yeah. Maybe we will eventually see a real midline tech battleship with the new 0.8 faction?

The (current) problem is Conquest speed is roughly equal to Onslaught/Paragon.  On campaign, speed is the same as the rest of the capitals (until 0.8 comes, that is).  In combat, it is slightly more top speed than a battleship, but not enough to dodge things.  It is still slow, and Onslaught might be able to keep up with burn drive.

That is the fatal weakness of battlecruisers in 0.7x - all of the weaknesses of a battleship, but none of the strengths (battlecruisers should have).

[Philder]

I haven't gotten to pilot one yet, but from the stats it clearly looks like a support ship. It has the best flux dissipation to weapon mount ratio for large ballistics, therefor it's best suited for laying down constant fire, which makes it well suited for pounding ships that can't hurt it. (ie:smaller ships or ships not targeting it)

IMO the Conquest is a damage support that you fly behind the frontline or poke in with from the sides. Myself I plan on loading one side with Storm Needlers, and the other side with Mjolnir + Hellbore, and then hanging out behind a Paragon that I'll sick on the big targets.

One aspect that no one has mentioned thus far is the armor advantages gained from switching broadside faces. Instead of taking all the heat in the face, you're spreading the damage out over two looong sides

Finally, you should look at the effective health points (EHP) rather than just the given numbers of flux cap and flux:dmg ratio. EHP is how much raw damage something can soak. For the Conquest, its base shield EHP is 14300 (20000/1.4). For the Onslaught, it's 17000. Paragon has a fantastic 41700 base shield EHP, and that's not counting Fortress Shield (250 000 for the curious). Odessey sits comfortably at 18800. And you can do the same for flux dissipation. [EHP regen] = [flux dissipation] / [flux:dmg ratio]. EHP regen for the mentioned ships are, respectively, 860, 600, 2080, and 1250. None of this includes how OP meta affects how many points you have left to spend on flux stats.

Basically what the numbers tell me is that Conquest has a shield that's slightly lower capped than the Onslaught but performs substantially better in a prolonged engagement. HOWEVER, the shield ratio doesn't similarly affect the flux generation of weapons! Not only does the Conquest have a better flux cap, it has twice the dissipation of the Onslaught! Aside from the TPC against large targets, they're both dealing with the same selection of weapons, meaning that their flux translates to damage given the same way. The Onslaught might have more initial potential with it's 5 large weapons pointing in the same direction, but in a prolonged engagement the Conquest is superior in all but hull/armor. Onslaught will quickly max out its flux and thus limit its firepower to its flux dissipation. The Conquest with twice the flux dissipation will be able to deal twice the damage. Onslaught might have the firepower, but it doesn't have the necessary power supply to keep up the fire.

Actually something I hadn't thought of till just now is that you could load one side with anti-fighter/frigate weapons and thus eliminate the need for cruisers to do that for you. Your Conquests would be dual-purposed.

Frankly I can't wait for 0.8. Maybe AI will have improved, making Conquest a potential AI pilot-able ship.