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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

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Capital carrier
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Total Members Voted: 18


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Author Topic: [0.7.2a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.6 (update 2016-08-27)  (Read 83852 times)

Gezzaman

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2016, 01:29:44 PM »

Second, I'd reconsider the burn speed of 9 on the Orion.  In the early game when I'm building a frigate swarm, burn speed of 9 is a killer.  If the Orion is supposed to catch fast ships and hold them in place for the slower ships to catch up to, it needs to be fast enough to catch those fast ships, and right now, it's not.

Orion is fine as it is now, Burn 9 can still easily catch fleets especially when you put asteroid belts / coronas / gravity wells etc into play. When PBC first came out the orion was a terribad ship haha, a lot has changed for the better
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ProdigyToby

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2016, 05:55:32 AM »

I really like the Gaia cruiser, I use it often, very versatile neat little ship.  I found everything else alittle underwhelming though, especially the capital ships (please phase out broadside oriented capitals from the game community, they never work.)
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Gezzaman

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2016, 01:35:35 PM »

I really like the Gaia cruiser, I use it often, very versatile neat little ship.  I found everything else alittle underwhelming though, especially the capital ships (please phase out broadside oriented capitals from the game community, they never work.)

Not too sure why you think the Capitols are broadside orientated ,
Thanatos is full frontal mounts with indiction drones which are so damn good dealing with fighters so you can focus on the big baddies

Moros is a total beast, Front and broadside works for it since most mounts can still turn forward and overlap slightly plus that Hax 90% (or is it 95%) shield damage absorption
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grinningsphinx

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2016, 11:24:43 PM »

The Moros class for 400,000+ is pretty weak...Compare it to the Tiandong Pocket Battleship(250,000) and you will see what  i mean.   The Moros has no focus, no hybrid mounts, only two universal and the abilities are eh.
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celestis

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2016, 02:35:28 AM »

Moros is intended to be versatile, while being able to engage by both front and broadside. If fighting large ships, all large weapons can fire on the same target at once. And only one is out of arc if fighting something smaller. Moreover its special weapon and system are essential for battleship dueling, so I don't really consider it underpowered. Price... Well, it is vastly influenced by economy I guess, because I don't remember setting it to be as costly as 400K. Will check that.

Pallas shield and system sound will be fixed, thx for noticing, @Network Pesci.

About Orion burn, I agree with @Gezzaman: you have hullmods to adjust all that. It is not intended to be a very good ship after all.

P.S.
I added a poll to the thread, so you can vote for the changes that you would like to see most in the next update.
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ProdigyToby

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2016, 07:28:20 AM »

Moros is intended to be versatile, while being able to engage by both front and broadside. If fighting large ships, all large weapons can fire on the same target at once. And only one is out of arc if fighting something smaller. Moreover its special weapon and system are essential for battleship dueling, so I don't really consider it underpowered. Price... Well, it is vastly influenced by economy I guess, because I don't remember setting it to be as costly as 400K. Will check that.

  I don't want to be rude, but may I ask why you felt like it was necessary to have a broadside capital?  Unless something like a fat onslaught class is sitting right in front of you, those turrets will never fire at anything in front of you.  The Thanatos has a comparable frontal assault (one less large energy and a couple of smalls) but is classified as "pocket battlecruiser", yet the moros is classified as "battleship" just because it has two extra large broadside turrets that you probably wouldn't want to use anyway for anything other than some major PD but there are already a ton of small slots for that (personally half the time I don't even have anything in those slots).  I never EVER position a capital ship to broadside anything, simply not worth the risk or money.  To top it off, if you're broadsiding something that means the opposite side of your ordinance is essentially not being used, so not only is it extra risky to position your capitals like that, but its also pretty ineffecient.  You could make the argument "What if a large enemy happens to fly into your broadside?" but unless you are not paying attention to your map or a ship has some kind of ridiculous mobility system that rarely happens, and I prefer it that way, because generally only making use of your frontal ordinance to engage enemy capitals at a distance is a better strategic choice, imo.  Not to mention the Moros is pretty expensive compared to other ships.

  Didn't mean to rant or anything but if you are playing the game modded you probably want capital ships with the capability to fire all those large forwards, and there are plenty of those to choose from in these mods.  Its dumb to compare stats or anything else between mods but I feel like the way the ships themselves function should be a certain way, the way that would make the ship useful/fun and justify its cost.  Like I said with that pricetag, and if you're modding (and you're here reading this so you probably are) then you know as well as I do with those credits you could get a capital with 5-6 frontal large if you wanted it.  Really like the spritework and everything else about the mod though, although some of the smaller ships are kind of underpowered.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 07:30:34 AM by ProdigyToby »
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celestis

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2016, 09:49:46 AM »

Quote
why you felt like it was necessary to have a broadside capital
Not necessary, of course, but there are few of them, so a bit of diversity is probably not bad with that number of mods around.

Broadside ships have one good advantage - armor. If you use frontal design and ruin the frontal armor, you may find yourself quickly losing hitpoints afterwards. For broadside ships you always have an option to switch sides. And for Moros you in fact have 3: two sides and front. All that is at expence of one large slot not being able to target small ships at front, which is quite acceptable to my mind.
That is probably quite off from the usual human playstyle, but I guess AI is relatively okay with that. Decent side firepower has saved me several times on this ship.

I will probably test how the overlapping large slots feel, I'm just afraid that it will be too OP in this case.

As for the price tag, I looked it up and it is 300K, same as Paragon, which is indeed a bit too much. But Moros is definitely more solid than Odyssey at 250K, so I think I will settle the price tag somewhere in the middle.
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2016, 10:59:05 AM »

That is probably quite off from the usual human playstyle, but I guess AI is relatively okay with that.

The AI is pretty horrible with broadside ships, actually. They work fine in player hands as long as you keep your wits about you.
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HELMUT

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2016, 11:38:06 AM »

Like I said with that pricetag, and if you're modding (and you're here reading this so you probably are) then you know as well as I do with those credits you could get a capital with 5-6 frontal large if you wanted it.

Sounds good.




Broadside ships aren't bad, just weird. They can be very weak or very strong depending on who pilot it. Like Hartlord said, an AI controlled Conquest is underwhelming. But when the player get his hands on it, it's a kiting monster. And again, it depend of the ship. The THI Xu is a broadside ship, yet i think the AI is doing a pretty good job with it.

Still, the PBC capital ships are indeed weaker than it should be. The Moros got absolutely crushed against an Onslaught or a Paragon. I found that the AI don't use the ionized shield for some reason, but even piloted by me, the fight was unnecessarily rough.

Thanatos is in the same boat, it even lost against a Conquest. And the only reason it managed to kinda survive during the battle was because of the AI obsession with drones.

So yeah, probably some more tweaks to do. The Moros could definitely benefit from larger turrets angle for the rear large mounts so it can brawl better, but even then, i'm not sure that would make it competitive.

By the way, the price tag isn't a really good way to balance things, by knowing how to "farm" efficiently, money quickly become irrelevant in campaign and strong ships can still be abused. Monthly maintenance, recovery cost and things like those however, are much harder to ignore. Works much better to balance a ship than the price.
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ProdigyToby

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2016, 12:52:01 PM »

Quote
why you felt like it was necessary to have a broadside capital
Not necessary, of course, but there are few of them, so a bit of diversity is probably not bad with that number of mods around.

Broadside ships have one good advantage - armor. If you use frontal design and ruin the frontal armor, you may find yourself quickly losing hitpoints afterwards. For broadside ships you always have an option to switch sides. And for Moros you in fact have 3: two sides and front. All that is at expence of one large slot not being able to target small ships at front, which is quite acceptable to my mind.
That is probably quite off from the usual human playstyle, but I guess AI is relatively okay with that. Decent side firepower has saved me several times on this ship.

I will probably test how the overlapping large slots feel, I'm just afraid that it will be too OP in this case.

As for the price tag, I looked it up and it is 300K, same as Paragon, which is indeed a bit too much. But Moros is definitely more solid than Odyssey at 250K, so I think I will settle the price tag somewhere in the middle.

  Sure they bring some diversity, but every time I have one of these "diverse" ships they just get completely mauled in large fleet engagements, because the AI usually does not know how to use that ship  (Such as the AI putting my carriers/support frigates/ecw frigates or range setups right on the front line to get destroyed) so the safer option is for the player to make use of them OR put a "cautious" officer in them sometimes does the trick (I find cautious just a tad too battle shy) but most of the game is giving your ships to AI in fleet engagements.  Thats why I prefer frontal ordinance.  The AI, even if it just simply moves the ship forward towards enemies, still uses its weapons at its max range.  This is also a very efficient strategy for capitals in fleet engagements, you don't want your capitals in bad positions like I said, they cost money.  I find positioning more valuable in my modded game than special traits like "armor" or those special faction ship mods some authors like to do, because sometimes they just don't really matter if you're not suited to situation.  One example would be when my faction was at war with Shadowyards (great mod as well) then the Moros's armor wouldn't really matter.  No ones armor really matters vs those guys with that Deva Heavy HE beam, but being able to just shoot at them efficiently from your front line will always be good.  I do like different options and different strategy, but unless you get some kind of huge advantage from broad siding as opposed to not, then I would just get a ship whose strength isn't reliant on that trait.

Like I said with that pricetag, and if you're modding (and you're here reading this so you probably are) then you know as well as I do with those credits you could get a capital with 5-6 frontal large if you wanted it.

Sounds good.




Broadside ships aren't bad, just weird. They can be very weak or very strong depending on who pilot it. Like Hartlord said, an AI controlled Conquest is underwhelming. But when the player get his hands on it, it's a kiting monster. And again, it depend of the ship. The THI Xu is a broadside ship, yet i think the AI is doing a pretty good job with it.

Still, the PBC capital ships are indeed weaker than it should be. The Moros got absolutely crushed against an Onslaught or a Paragon. I found that the AI don't use the ionized shield for some reason, but even piloted by me, the fight was unnecessarily rough.

Thanatos is in the same boat, it even lost against a Conquest. And the only reason it managed to kinda survive during the battle was because of the AI obsession with drones.

So yeah, probably some more tweaks to do. The Moros could definitely benefit from larger turrets angle for the rear large mounts so it can brawl better, but even then, i'm not sure that would make it competitive.

By the way, the price tag isn't a really good way to balance things, by knowing how to "farm" efficiently, money quickly become irrelevant in campaign and strong ships can still be abused. Monthly maintenance, recovery cost and things like those however, are much harder to ignore. Works much better to balance a ship than the price.


  LOLl! My kind of ship.  Actually if you could upscale the brawler class gunship to capital and maybe expand it horizontally so it has even more forward turrets then that would be the perfect ship to represent diversity  :D  I didn't meant 5 large just sitting right in the front, but rather 5 that are oriented so they shoot forwards  :P.  I mean price SHOULD matter even if its not relevant in the meta of the game, shouldn't it?  I would hope so.  Makes the game more fun when the economy is worth something.  Also I don't play campaign, I prefer Nexerelin mostly, so price is really important early on, sometimes its stupidly hard to get started.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 01:10:09 PM by ProdigyToby »
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Gezzaman

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2016, 01:28:42 PM »

I found that the AI don't use the ionized shield for some reason, but even piloted by me, the fight was unnecessarily rough.

I usually Pilot the Moros and find it pretty powerful. I recently changed to the Onslaught XIV ( because who doesnt like 5 Cyclone Reaper launchers ) and found that AI never uses the Ionised shields also. It would of helped soak up the damage of the entire fleet early in battle ( especially against Templars when the first 20 seconds of the engagement is filled with clarent spam and dead frigates being fodder to eat them up)
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grinningsphinx

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2016, 10:53:45 PM »

Quote
why you felt like it was necessary to have a broadside capital
Not necessary, of course, but there are few of them, so a bit of diversity is probably not bad with that number of mods around.

Broadside ships have one good advantage - armor. If you use frontal design and ruin the frontal armor, you may find yourself quickly losing hitpoints afterwards. For broadside ships you always have an option to switch sides. And for Moros you in fact have 3: two sides and front. All that is at expence of one large slot not being able to target small ships at front, which is quite acceptable to my mind.
That is probably quite off from the usual human playstyle, but I guess AI is relatively okay with that. Decent side firepower has saved me several times on this ship.

I will probably test how the overlapping large slots feel, I'm just afraid that it will be too OP in this case.

As for the price tag, I looked it up and it is 300K, same as Paragon, which is indeed a bit too much. But Moros is definitely more solid than Odyssey at 250K, so I think I will settle the price tag somewhere in the middle.




The TD pocket BC will rip you in half bro.  GL with that:).  Also the flux stats on Theseus and Kratos make them poor tanks. If it werent for the Gaia and Morai  hardly anything from the line up would be worth taking.  I havent tried the light cruiser yet, but at 45 speed well.....
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celestis

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2016, 01:39:31 AM »

Quote
Also the flux stats on Theseus and Kratos make them poor tanks
Theseus has good armor and can use the system to keep things running for longer. Not only flux stats make up a tank.  +it can be an awesome torpedo ship.
Kratos is meant to kite with beams.

Quote
The TD pocket BC will rip you in half bro.  GL with that:)
I try to balance against vanilla, not other mods.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 01:42:01 AM by celestis »
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celestis

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2016, 10:18:16 AM »

Tested the Xu (TD pocket battleship) in simulator and I don't quite understand why are you so sure that it will "rip me in half". I defeated it in 4 different Moros variants, while only in one of the battles I left with less than 95% hull. Blew it up twice in Thanatos too, but that was much harder. Some variants were a complete failure, like Gauss or HIL, but they are intended for different situations. Playing for Xu, on the other hand, was easy only if the AI was stupid enough to try kiting. So, balance-wise I find its performance very decent.
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grinningsphinx

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Re: [0.7.1a] Pegasus Belt Council v1.3 (update 2015-12-15)
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2016, 01:46:54 PM »

Were both your ships under AI control?  Test AI vs AI, no captains,  and let me know your results
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