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Author Topic: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons  (Read 37912 times)

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2015, 08:47:11 PM »

in before change log

#fighters eliminated

(laffo)
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2015, 09:15:29 PM »

in before change log

#fighters eliminated

(laffo)

lol
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Alex

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2015, 09:19:57 PM »

That is an elegant solution - minimal dev effort and definitively takes care of all the issues. Fighters are responsible for a lot of the complexity in the code, too. Hmm.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2015, 09:27:50 PM »

That is an elegant solution - minimal dev effort and definitively takes care of all the issues. Fighters are responsible for a lot of the complexity in the code, too. Hmm.

Now you're going to find yourself thinking about it and actually considering it. ultralol :P
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Alex

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2015, 09:55:45 PM »

(I should probably make it 100% clear that I was joking, before someone takes this seriously. Ahem.)
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2015, 01:44:01 AM »

Another nice detail about this is that disabling EMP hits on flight decks could specifically knock out the reproduction of the associated wing. Without messing with all flight operations as it would now.

And of course that it would do away with the (functional, but very hard to keep track of) mechanism of fighter replacement/wing loss.
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xenoargh

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2015, 10:37:42 AM »

That is an elegant solution - minimal dev effort and definitively takes care of all the issues. Fighters are responsible for a lot of the complexity in the code, too. Hmm.
We really should have started the thread closer to April 1.

I can see it now:

"Fighters eliminated, because I decided that guns that shoot bees were cooler.  Onslaught replaced with a clown car."
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2015, 12:33:53 PM »

"Onslaught replaced with a clown car."

Shouldn't that be a bee hive? ;)




I've been thinking about this thread quite a bit, and I think I've come up with decent solutions for the particular problems of slots, controlling wings, and OP costs for fighter wings. I've folded drones into this because I think it makes sense.


Instead of using "flight decks" as the unit of wing slots, I will use "launch bays". Launch bays come in small, medium, and large and work like weapon slots (e.g. in regards to size). Drones are size small, most fighters are size medium, and bombers/big fighters are size large. So a small launch bay could house a drone wing, a medium launch bay could house a drone wing or fighter wing, and a large launch bay could house any kind of fighter/bomber wing, but not a drone wing.

For example, a Condor could have a large bay and two medium bays and a Gemini could have two medium bays and a small bay. This would make the Condor a more powerful and flexible carrier, but the Gemini would still be competitive and be a better drone carrier.


(I haven't put as much thought into this idea as the other two, so it might be a little rougher.) Wings of fighters, bombers, drones, etc. act like wings do now and controlling them would be done through the tactical interface exactly like now. The exception being wings launch from/recall to their carrier instead of burn in/retreat, and if recalled they can then be called out again. Basically the best of both drone and fighter control in one.

This part goes off on a tangent:
Spoiler
With sensor drones controllable in the tactical interface, I think we can eliminate sensor buoys, transferring their effect to the drones that can now be launched from many different ships. I think it obvious that the drones' bonus effect, in this case weapon damage, would have to be limited: both the radius from the drone and how far stacking from multiple drones can go. It's easy enough to expand that to navigation drones that replace nav buoys. Maybe have communication drones that produce command points? — I don't know.

This would make combat more dynamic, and I think more interesting and fun. It would also clean up the lore oddity that are buoys.
[close]



The final part of this post is how to determine the OP cost of fighter/drone wings. I have focused on the OP cost of a fighter's weapons as a starting point to balance around. This has come out surprisingly well.

First I ran all the fighters and drones through this formula: OP = (WeaponOP + 5 * X) / X [+ 2]

OP is the OP cost for the fighter/drone wing. WeaponOP is the OP cost of one fighter/drone's weapons in a wing. X is 1, 2, or 3 depending on whether I placed the wing as small, medium, or large: drones are small; most fighters are medium; bombers, the Xyphos, and the Gladius are large. The [+ 2] is for if the fighters/drones in the wing have a shield/phase cloak; I'll admit this is mainly to bump up Daggers.

Here is a full chart of vanilla fighters and drones and their results:
Spoiler
Code: java
OP    Fighter/Drone
10    Broadsword
8     Dagger
11    Gladius
11    Longbow
6     Mining Pod
7     Piranha
7     Talon
10    Thunder
13    Trident
10    Warthog
7     Wasp
15    Xyphos

7     Borer
8     PD (mg)
10    PD (laser)
11    Assault (not used anywhere currently afaik)
20    Terminator
11    Sensor
[close]

This formula, however, is just to get baselines. The result would then be adjusted to reflect the wing's actual value in combat.

As an aside, I don't think the Terminator fits with the rest of the fighters/drones and should stay as only a ship system.


I know this doesn't cover many aspects of fighter wings, but I think it's a solid base that we could work from.

Spoiler
I apologize for shifting tenses and stuff everywhere. :P
[close]
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 12:36:39 PM by HartLord »
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2015, 01:11:48 PM »

Mh, I think drones work really well as systems, what would be the benefit of rolling them into fighter mechanics?


The proposed OP costs seem a bit cheap to me, but that's going too far into details anyway.
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2015, 02:49:00 PM »

IMO drones are fine as-is... And I don't want to see Terminator drones swarming out of an Astral, too. :P
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2015, 06:49:09 PM »

I agree that drones work fine right now as ship systems, however, they do take up the ship system. So if fighters get reworked, why not pull drones into the same system while we're at it?

I mean, would it not be awesome to see an Astral with, for example, a Fortress Shield cruise into the middle of a battle, then toggle the shield to unleash hordes of lasers, missiles, fighters, bombers, and drones?


In regards to Ordnance Points, I accidentally'd my main point: internally consistent OP costs can be determined based on the weapons a fighter, bomber, or drone carries. I'm sure my numbers are far from perfect, but the formula placed the various fighters in a mostly logical order of effectiveness.

As Alex has pointed out, energy weapons usually don't compete with ballistics for weapon slots or even ship OPs, so they don't necessarily have to have the same OP cost to effectiveness ratios. Weapons and fighters/drones would be similar: fighters/drones would have their own rules for determining what has what OP cost that wouldn't necessarily have much to do with slot size.
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Wyvern

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2015, 01:47:28 PM »

And I don't want to see Terminator drones swarming out of an Astral, too.
I do!  That sounds awesome!
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Thaago

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2015, 02:12:22 PM »

I made a capital grade drone carrier that used two dozen terminator drones when the system first came out - its really cool to see, but the AI at the time couldn't handle it. After the update though...
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2015, 10:38:17 AM »

Phase shifting anything is a pain, fighters more than most. Lower duration, sure, but you can only kill them actively when they play defensive if you threaten them until they overload. At which point you might get to kill them, or they might vent fast enough for a second round.

----
I agree that fighters should be carrier weapons.
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Fighter as a Carrier's weapons
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2015, 09:10:17 AM »

And I don't want to see Terminator drones swarming out of an Astral, too.
I do!  That sounds awesome!
Honestly I do, too, but the balance reason... I mean... the most practical way to destroy a Terminator drone is destroying its mothership...you know...
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