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Author Topic: Expanded Battles  (Read 107937 times)

Cycerin

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2015, 03:09:15 PM »

Love it, this will add that amazing new player thing EVN had where you could go to Tichel and watch Auroran and Federation forces blasting each other to pieces, giving a token contribution to the fight. Exact opposite of what its been for a small weak character in Starsector. Finally rounding out the game's difficulty curve is important.

Regarding battles taking place on the campaign map: is simulated combat done in discrete "rounds" like in Mount & Blade where you can hover over them and watch combatants disappear every few seconds, or is it a single timer?

Also really curious about how this looks on the campaign map now.

My only worry with this feature is very large fleet battles, as they are usually messy and involve friendly fire, collision parties and stupid frigate AI.
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Alex

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2015, 03:15:55 PM »

Thank you all, this makes me happy :)

YES! I didn't dare to hope for this since I remembered you saying at one point that it was too tricky to do. Glad you got it sorted out.

Yeah, some parts of this were... involved. A bit concerned some bugs may slip through, truth be told - this is a tough one to test out comprehensively, just because of how many different things in all layers of the game it touches. Ah, well, will deal with 'em when they happen.

Soooo... my really big question is what will this look like from the player's perspective when initiating a combat and other fleets come to support?  Will there be a short period where we still see the campaign layer with both fleets in contact and other fleets can choose to swoop in and support, will they appear at the engage/disengage screen where we see each fleet's composition, or will our first notice be a lot of additional ships appear in the tactical combat stage?  Will joining fleets appear immediately or partway through the battle?

The second screenshot is what it looks like. The "supporting" fleets don't actually move from where they are, they just need to be within a certain (relatively short) range to join in.

(Not exactly what you asked, but related: if you join an ongoing battle, you'll be a bit late to it, with some combat time - up to a minute or two - having elapsed.)


I'm curious about a few details. How are reputation/loot handled? Will fleets sometimes break off between sub-battles when their ships are worn out, or do they always support allies after the initial decision? And if they can leave, how is only part of a larger fleet retreating handled?

Reputation and loot are reduced by what fraction (under the hood, in terms of fleet points) the player's fleet is of the overall forces, at the start of the battle. Likewise for bounty rewards; you'll only get a share and not the full bounty.

Once a fleet joins a battle, it can't leave until one side decides to disengage, at which point there's a final autoresolve round and that battle ends.

Regarding battles taking place on the campaign map: is simulated combat done in discrete "rounds" like in Mount & Blade where you can hover over them and watch combatants disappear every few seconds, or is it a single timer?

Discrete rounds every day or thereabouts, which a "engage or disengage" decision being made by each side every round.

If NPC fleets can join into a player's battle in progress, that means that campaign time is running during battles now. Do we get any sort of awareness of what's going on in the campaign layer during battle? To see if anybody's coming to aid or murder us? It seems necessary, even if it's just a little minimap with friendlies and enemies marked

(Or can they not do that?)

They can't join a player battle in progress, and campaign time doesn't run. Who joins a player-initiated battle is decided at the point you interact with another fleet. Running time in the campaign etc would be rather complicated and, as you point out, would also lead to other complications.

What isn't clear is whether these supporting fleets are available from the outset, or if they have delayed arrival. (based upon their speed & distance from the battle site).

From the outset.

How are allied ships outwardly identified via script?

FleetMemberAPI.isAlly(), ShipAPI.isAlly(), FighterWingAPI.isAlly(), if that's what you're asking.

My only worry with this feature is very large fleet battles, as they are usually messy and involve friendly fire, collision parties and stupid frigate AI.

Well, on the bright side, that'd make those issues easier to spot and fix. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new and improved ship AI, though :)

Edit: attaching what a battle looks like in the campaign.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:18:54 PM by Alex »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2015, 03:24:03 PM »

I meant more in terms of whether you changed the implementation of the Owner field.  That 0/1/100 *** is the most magical of magical numbers.
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Adraius

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2015, 03:24:36 PM »

Soooo... my really big question is what will this look like from the player's perspective when initiating a combat and other fleets come to support?  Will there be a short period where we still see the campaign layer with both fleets in contact and other fleets can choose to swoop in and support, will they appear at the engage/disengage screen where we see each fleet's composition, or will our first notice be a lot of additional ships appear in the tactical combat stage?  Will joining fleets appear immediately or partway through the battle?

The second screenshot is what it looks like. The "supporting" fleets don't actually move from where they are, they just need to be within a certain (relatively short) range to join in.

(Not exactly what you asked, but related: if you join an ongoing battle, you'll be a bit late to it, with some combat time - up to a minute or two - having elapsed.)


I'm curious about a few details. How are reputation/loot handled? Will fleets sometimes break off between sub-battles when their ships are worn out, or do they always support allies after the initial decision? And if they can leave, how is only part of a larger fleet retreating handled?

Reputation and loot are reduced by what fraction (under the hood, in terms of fleet points) the player's fleet is of the overall forces, at the start of the battle. Likewise for bounty rewards; you'll only get a share and not the full bounty.

Once a fleet joins a battle, it can't leave until one side decides to disengage, at which point there's a final autoresolve round and that battle ends.

Edit: attaching what a battle looks like in the campaign.
Thanks for the explanations and the pic!
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SafariJohn

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2015, 03:27:16 PM »

Bleaiujksdhfkjdsbngsdhngiuodfhgdjkfngkjdfhngioj multifleet battles dsgnoiergnhdfklmghnioernhmiornhm yay!

I am somewhat disappointed that they'll be completely instantaneous for the player. (Or that's what it seems.)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:29:14 PM by HartLord »
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Alex

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2015, 03:29:59 PM »

I meant more in terms of whether you changed the implementation of the Owner field.  That 0/1/100 *** is the most magical of magical numbers.

Ah - no, that's still the same. Thought it was too, er, magical to mess with. I'd hate to have to fix the AI in all the places that could silently break if that was changed.

FleetEncounterContext/FleetInteractionDialogPluginImpl, on the other hand, did need a pretty major rewrite.


Bleaiujksdhfkjdsbngsdhngiuodfhgdjkfngkjdfhngioj multifleet battles dsgnoiergnhdfklmghnioernhmiornhm yay!

:D
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Nanao-kun

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2015, 03:34:49 PM »

Yes!
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LazyWizard

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2015, 03:35:01 PM »

I'm curious about a few details. How are reputation/loot handled? Will fleets sometimes break off between sub-battles when their ships are worn out, or do they always support allies after the initial decision? And if they can leave, how is only part of a larger fleet retreating handled?

[...]

Once a fleet joins a battle, it can't leave until one side decides to disengage, at which point there's a final autoresolve round and that battle ends.

I'm guessing the one who decides for that side is the original fleet involved?


It just occurred to me how insanely dangerous travelling around enemy bases will be now. Barad will go from a favored early game stomping ground to a death trap (I'm not complaining, it makes sense that bases shouldn't be loot/xp pinatas). This change feels good. :)

If we interact with/get caught by an enemy and tons of nearby fleets leap to its defense, will immediately retreating involve all of them or just the original?

For situations like the above maybe there could be a "scramble fleet" option at the start of combat that costs a ton of CR/autodeploys everything but allows us to fight just the original fleet, no allies or enemy support. Nobody likes getting surprise dogpiled.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:38:19 PM by LazyWizard »
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MShadowy

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2015, 03:36:21 PM »

Well, if I had not been jazzed before I would definitely be jazzed now.  This is looking very nice, Alex.
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FasterThanSleepyfish

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2015, 03:38:56 PM »

Eeeeee! Multifleet battles! Stellar mosh pits! Space orgies! Oh, be still my beating heart~!

G-great work Alex, I can't wait for this positively amazing feature (in addition to officers and ship AI)!
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Alex

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2015, 03:43:37 PM »

I'm guessing the one who decides for that side is the original fleet involved?

Yeah, as long as it's alive. After that, the fleet with the most FP.

(Well, technically there's a combined fleet that decides, with its own AI, but it has the MemoryAPI of the original/largest fleet.)

If we interact with/get caught by an enemy and tons of nearby fleets leap to its defense, will immediately retreating involve all of them or just the original?

All of them. And with the change to escape scenarios to start at a much closer range, it's going to be trouble.

For situations like the above maybe there could be a "scramble fleet" option at the start of combat that costs a ton of CR/autodeploys everything but allows us to fight just the original fleet, no allies or enemy support.

Hmm, maybe. On the other hand, this is a "get out of jail for (not) free" card, where there's already an option to do that where you just play out the escape. This feels like yeah, it'd add a choice, but it's a muddy choice because the two options feel similar.
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orost

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2015, 03:47:30 PM »

It seems oddly assymetrical that NPC fleets can't join in progress while the player can. Maybe it could be done without needing to pass time in campaign (which is obviously an enourmous can of worms)? Have fleets that are far away but still close enough to interact arrive with a delay, maybe some fleets delay engaging until a later point in the battle (see if it's going their way before commiting). I think it would make things more interesting and intuitive, and it seems a lot more doable than running the campaign in the background.
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Adraius

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2015, 03:53:07 PM »

It seems oddly assymetrical that NPC fleets can't join in progress while the player can. Maybe it could be done without needing to pass time in campaign (which is obviously an enourmous can of worms)? Have fleets that are far away but still close enough to interact arrive with a delay, maybe some fleets delay engaging until a later point in the battle (see if it's going their way before commiting). I think it would make things more interesting and intuitive, and it seems a lot more doable than running the campaign in the background.
I'm happy with the current conceit to keeping the cans o' worms manageable, but I'd also like to see this if possible.

Also, rounds of a full day sound rather imprecise when battles are supposed to take "a couple of days or so" - any chance they could be updated every half-day?
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Tarkets

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2015, 03:55:47 PM »

Sorry if this was asked/answered and I glazed over it in excitement, presumably the relations of the player and the factions have a part in who the player can join, I assume this will also positively effect the relations of the faction we team up with?

If both fleets are hostile to the player, will the player be prevented from engaging until the fight is broken up?
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Talkie Toaster

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Re: Expanded Battles
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2015, 03:59:55 PM »

I am so hyped for this. Will we be able to see the orders our allies have issued? I assume we benefit from them holding nav buoys etc., but it'd be nice to know which ones they're going for.

I also guess we can only repair/rearm fighters on our own carriers?

Also, what happens if the side with the most FP changes over the course of a battle- say, you arrive late and the original Hegemony trade fleet gets its teeth kicked in but your ships are still in fighting condition. Do you seize control of the engagement and have the option to continue (because you know you can outfly the remaining enemy despite their FP advantage), or will the Hegemony AI decide to retreat and force you to come along?
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