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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

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Author Topic: [0.95a] Roider Union 1.2.2  (Read 154586 times)

SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #90 on: October 22, 2020, 09:14:17 PM »

My point with the bomber runs is there is probably no middle ground between too strong and not strong enough. Either they'd work really well or they would not be worth using over more conventional bombers.

I don't think its damage is quite as good as you think it is. A wing deals 3k at 75 damage/shot over 3 seconds, whereas a Dagger wing deals 3k at 1k damage/shot instantly. Now it also reloads faster and has a Vulcan, but it has to sit there getting shot at to make use of that DPM.
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #91 on: October 23, 2020, 03:23:25 AM »

My point with the bomber runs is there is probably no middle ground between too strong and not strong enough. Either they'd work really well or they would not be worth using over more conventional bombers.

I don't think its damage is quite as good as you think it is. A wing deals 3k at 75 damage/shot over 3 seconds, whereas a Dagger wing deals 3k at 1k damage/shot instantly. Now it also reloads faster and has a Vulcan, but it has to sit there getting shot at to make use of that DPM.

I'm going to be a little bit of a devil's advocate here and make a bold statement:
Comparing the Rocksaw to one of the best missile bombers is really unfair, for the Dagger.

I sincerely am under the opinion that the best damage type in the whole Starsector is not HE, Energy, Kinetic, EMP or Frag but the unavoidable one. You can be ready for a Dagger Carrier that uses ammunition wich can be shot down but there is literally no way you can magically stop a Rocksaw going "Haha, Rotaries go brr!"  Unless you heavily and I mean heavily invest in hyper long range PD defence like PDAI lasers or in the case of ballistic mounts (staying vanilla) Railguns and Devastator cannon.

The Dagger might even be at a disadvantage compared to the Rocksaw even under heavy fire, it might have a shield but it's not really the best one among fighters and it won't be able to either retreat or shoot it's missile once it inevitably get overloaded, while the Rocksaw has very impressive health AND armor to only ever be really dealt quickly by flaks, Devastators or lasers.

Not only that. The Dagger purely exists to damage enemy ships and is unable of doing anything else. It does not even carry a machinegun to defend itself, while the Rocksaw can and will delete any fighter it can get it's bearing on. I've noticed that very fast/high burst damage interceptors (like the thunder to stay vanilla) can be able to paralyze it long enough for other assets to shoot them down, but it takes less than half a second for the Rocksaw to light anything under that category of fighter craft on fire, and it's the inverse situation  for heavier fighter types where things like the Broadsword might have better combined HP but they just can't put a dent into the armor, while the Rocksaw tears them a new one with HE and shreds them with frag damage.

Lastly, there's also the matter of how you support/synergize both Rocksaw and Dagger.

The Dagger works best with carriers either preventing it to get shot down or making it cycle thru bombing runs faster (Astral) and works best when combined with things traveling along with it dealing heavy shield damage (Xyphos). The Rocksaw, as it is now, does not really require other fighter types of there's enough of them flying to the same target. It provides such a constant threat to enemy ships unable to handle its damage potential I adopted the smallest carrier you can fit a Squall (or otherwise kinetic weapons) into like the Slugworth from HMI with its 3 hangars, composite large mount and ballistic large mount.

I actually said (in my previous post) the Rocksaw could have it's maximum number of Chaingun bursts (before returning to the carrier) reduced to two but that would obviously be too little. Maybe four or five max just to make sure it does not immediately run out of ammo by shooting enemy fighters as it nears its intended target?

I will admit I have not yet tried combining the Rocksaw with things possibly synergizing with it well (thinking about the Broadsword with it's machineguns, high HP and flares) but I will try testing the craft in the simulation nonetheless, although my current guy already has the fleet wide carrier skills I will leave the extra OP from the other skill unused to make it as fair as I currently can.
 
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 03:31:45 AM by Arcagnello »
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #92 on: October 23, 2020, 04:10:28 AM »

Yes, Rocksaw is too strong atm. I acknowledged that it needs nerfs.


You can't do multiple clips, unfortunately. It is either one clip or infinitely reloading clips.

Flak and beam PD are not good anti-fighter weapons. I use things like LAG, Heavy Mortar, IR Pulse Lasers, and Phase Lances. Or Tachyon Lances, Plasma Cannons and Devastators if I really want to delete them.
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #93 on: October 23, 2020, 05:30:25 AM »

Yes, Rocksaw is too strong atm. I acknowledged that it needs nerfs.
Also bear in mind that the experience I have with it is mostly with carriers boosting their already absurd damage, chararcher skills and a carrier officer, so I'm obviously partisan when it comes to its effetiveness, not to mention I still have the barely outdated Roider Union version with its damage still at 100.

You can't do multiple clips, unfortunately. It is either one clip or infinitely reloading clips.
Ah, that's a bummer. I guess the one good left option is to give it one moderately sizeable clip and having it go back to reload it  :-\

Flak and beam PD are not good anti-fighter weapons. I use things like LAG, Heavy Mortar, IR Pulse Lasers, and Phase Lances. Or Tachyon Lances, Plasma Cannons and Devastators if I really want to delete them.
Flak+machineguns is decent against missiles and unshielded fighters as far as my exrperience curbstomping the Stormhawk republic is concerned.
PD lasers are that trusty but underwhelming options for ships with energy mounts and needing the energy elsewhere, really.

 If it wasn't for a few units able to spam LR PD lasers (wich are basically a more flux effieicnt tac laser with built in PD capabilities) I would even warrant both normal and LR variant deserve some love from devs.No, the real laser point defence is tac lasers/medium lasers with PDAI and advanced turret gyros, provided the ship has the flux to handle it and fights the enemy at a long enough range to use them for their pros.


Anyway, I've done three very crude tests of the Rocksaw with my Slugworth carrier, one variant maxed out with officer, 100% CR and full OP spent, another "Standard" with no officer, 85% CR (got the skills for that too sadly) and without the extra OP from skills. This is with the chaingun still doing 100 damage. I'm using both my slughworths since one has 100% CR and the other one is at 85%. There's a large Missile Mount from the COPs wich is essentially a downgraded, infinite ammo squall and 4 (3 smalls, 1 medium) Sseth drone launchers wich are essentially 2500 range suicide drones wich explode creating a cone of pellets (kinetic damage on small mounts, HE damage for the medium mount)
Maxed Out Version
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Standard version


Maxed Out VS Hellbore/Sabot Dominator
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Deleted it almost before it even finishes Burn Driving into the carrier.

Maxed Out VS Talon/Annihilator Legion
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Deleted shortly after it gets into the range to fire the rockets at the carrier

Maxed Out VS Sabot/Atropos Aurora
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Deleted before even firing the second missile

Maxed Out VS Gauss/LRPD&Flak Conquest
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gets a few shots on the carrier before..well..exploding

Maxed Out VS Gauss/Annihilator Onslaught
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Gets into range with all weapons but is eaten alive from the backside shortly after

Maxed Out Vs Doom
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Can't even phase back out before being bursted down

Standard VS Hellbore/Sabot Dominator
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Dominator lasts longer but can't even get into range just like before

Standard VS Talon/Annihilator Legion
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The Legion actually manages to get in range but it's already completely stripped of back armor at the point and explodes shortly after

Standard VS Gauss/Annihilator Onslaught
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For some reason this one did not even get as far as the Legion and exploded by the time it burn drived forward the second time


Is the problem exacerbated by the fact none of these ships don't even use dual flaks, have most of their small mounts stripped/undergraded and have no PDAI? Of course, altough I don't think any, even modded LPCs come even close to this level of pinpoint, unavoidable and devastating damage aside from some incredibly expensive options (Immortal & BattleAxe Assault Corvettes, 26 and 22 FP respectively)


I've got to do some IRL stuff now and will test the standard version against Conquest/Aurora when I get back too. Probably will also test everything again after I update roider union, but that's going to happen later in the day.


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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #94 on: October 23, 2020, 06:07:03 PM »

You are pitting a strong mod carrier using strong mod weapons and strong (pre-nerf!) mod fighters against the unoptimized, no-officer vanilla sim variants. Of course it obliterates them. You can't do proper testing of a mod's content while mixing mods and pitting officer vs. no officer.

The Rocksaw will be nerfed. Later. Please please stop filling the thread with rants about it. :(
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2020, 03:35:45 PM »

You are pitting a strong mod carrier using strong mod weapons and strong (pre-nerf!) mod fighters against the unoptimized, no-officer vanilla sim variants. Of course it obliterates them. You can't do proper testing of a mod's content while mixing mods and pitting officer vs. no officer.

The Rocksaw will be nerfed. Later. Please please stop filling the thread with rants about it. :(

Aye!

Bug: Breaker and Bolt LPCs do not self destruct when the carrier retreats, leading to me having to personally clean them up to end the battle.

I don't know if it's also a carrier related problem but they were on the Ranch!


Edit: Remembered the name of that small interpector spamming the even smaller missiles. It's quite cute I must say UwU

« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 03:37:34 PM by Arcagnello »
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mora

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #96 on: October 24, 2020, 04:19:54 PM »

The roider patrols out in the wild generated by hidden roider markets will keep scanning you for contraband if you choose the "open comm link" option instead of some random greeting text.
This was after I was asked to turn on the transponder.
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #97 on: October 24, 2020, 06:54:02 PM »

Bug: Breaker and Bolt LPCs do not self destruct when the carrier retreats, leading to me having to personally clean them up to end the battle.

I don't know if it's also a carrier related problem but they were on the Ranch!

It seems to be a bug with vanilla's Reserve Deployment. I think I replicated it on a Drover by using the system when I had lost fighters, then retreating before the bonus fighters returned - the wing remained on the field attacking things.


The roider patrols out in the wild generated by hidden roider markets will keep scanning you for contraband if you choose the "open comm link" option instead of some random greeting text.
This was after I was asked to turn on the transponder.

Confused me for a bit, but I found the problem - needed to unset a variable. Also found some lurking newlines and got rid of them.
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Unnamed_Shadow

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #98 on: October 24, 2020, 10:57:07 PM »

This is a question regarding those same patrol scans.

Considering how the Roider Union works, and since even some Pirate Markets start with Roider Dives.

Shouldn't the Roiders basically be a Free Port Faction?

Technically they are Space Miners, and the main good needed by the Miners in Starsector are Drugs.

I feel it would make things easier as well as make more sense if they have no illegal goods other than AI Cores and maybe Organs (since that goes probably a bit more extreme than Drugs)
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #99 on: October 25, 2020, 05:04:25 AM »

Bug: Breaker and Bolt LPCs do not self destruct when the carrier retreats, leading to me having to personally clean them up to end the battle.

I don't know if it's also a carrier related problem but they were on the Ranch!

It seems to be a bug with vanilla's Reserve Deployment. I think I replicated it on a Drover by using the system when I had lost fighters, then retreating before the bonus fighters returned - the wing remained on the field attacking things.

I've just had it happen against other factions now. The leftover fighter wings just sit around in the spot where the carrier with Reserve Deployment retreated at. I actually never had it happen before, but I guess it's because It's been a while since I fought carrier centric enemies. I'll ask if it gets fixed in the 0.9.5 thread!
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Szasz

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Re: [0.65.2a] Roider Union 0.5.1 Alpha
« Reply #100 on: October 25, 2020, 05:46:41 AM »

Impossible = Buffalo Mk. 2 vs Onslaught

You know what? I think that's doable.
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #101 on: October 25, 2020, 08:15:41 AM »

This is a question regarding those same patrol scans.

Considering how the Roider Union works, and since even some Pirate Markets start with Roider Dives.

Shouldn't the Roiders basically be a Free Port Faction?

Technically they are Space Miners, and the main good needed by the Miners in Starsector are Drugs.

I feel it would make things easier as well as make more sense if they have no illegal goods other than AI Cores and maybe Organs (since that goes probably a bit more extreme than Drugs)

The Roider Union is a little more lawful than the generic independents faction, so no drugs and no free ports. Not every roider belongs to the Roider Union, that's what Dives represent and why they appear all over the place.


I'll ask if it gets fixed in the 0.9.5 thread!

Thanks!


Impossible = Buffalo Mk. 2 vs Onslaught

You know what? I think that's doable.

The quote in the spoiler was of Gothars doing just that. Sadly the image links are dead.
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Mr_8000

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #102 on: October 25, 2020, 12:15:29 PM »

I've built roider dives on one of my colonies, they seem to stock way more goods than they should. The colony is size 3.
Spoiler
[close]
On one hand, this is a great upgrade to the waystation, on the other, I don't think it's intended.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2020, 12:17:06 PM by Mr_8000 »
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #103 on: October 25, 2020, 03:30:06 PM »

I've built roider dives on one of my colonies, they seem to stock way more goods than they should. The colony is size 3.
Spoiler
[close]
On one hand, this is a great upgrade to the waystation, on the other, I don't think it's intended.

The problem is that the Roider Union submarket is available at all. Once you upgrade to a Union HQ the resource availability will become normal. Covering all the different add/remove submarket cases is a pain :'(
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Szasz

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Re: [0.9.1a] Roider Union 1.0.7
« Reply #104 on: October 25, 2020, 06:08:22 PM »

Impossible = Buffalo Mk. 2 vs Onslaught

You know what? I think that's doable.

The quote in the spoiler was of Gothars doing just that. Sadly the image links are dead.

Aww. Wish I could've seen that.
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