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Author Topic: Gemini Variant Idea  (Read 6162 times)

SafariJohn

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Gemini Variant Idea
« on: July 14, 2015, 11:00:48 AM »

It is mentioned in the description of the Gemini that containers that are compatible with it are rare. Wouldn't it make sense, then, that there would be Gemini sailing around without containers?

Such a variant would need a modified, container-less sprite (I'm not actually sure the containers are visible on the existing sprite; I presume they are somewhere around the front half of the ship).

It would have less cargo space but better maneuverability. All other stats would remain the same. :)
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2015, 02:54:49 PM »

Two protuding structures at the front, except the missile hardpoint and what seems to be a bridge, might be the cargo container. Or at leasr the structures containing it.

And also the presence of what looks like a rail running halfway down to the ship's spine makes me quite curious. Is it like a airplane catapult? Or part of the container seperation mechanism?

Aside from that, do you think that the variant would fit in a role nicely? Like... a destroyer-sized combat carrier?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 02:57:58 PM by Aron0621 »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2015, 03:00:42 PM »

More like a (D) variant, but not uniformly negative.
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Aeson

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2015, 06:33:40 PM »

Quote
Two protuding structures at the front, except the missile hardpoint and what seems to be a bridge, might be the cargo container. Or at leasr the structures containing it.
The flight deck appears to be in that forward structure; fighters appear to dock with the Gemini by entering the slightly indented side areas on the forward section or the lighted sections on the back of the forward section in the gap between the forward and rear sections, and launch from the same four areas. Interestingly, the drones seem to have a separate bay with a launch chute between the thrusters on the rear section rather than launching from the flight deck used by the fighters.

I personally suspect that the cargo container is probably hidden beneath the flight deck and thus not visible on the sprite, or if it is visible, then only parts of it are visible and they show as some of the 'lower' features of the forward section.

Quote
And also the presence of what looks like a rail running halfway down to the ship's spine makes me quite curious. Is it like a airplane catapult? Or part of the container seperation mechanism?
If you're talking about the apparently raised segment that runs along the bottom of the somewhat semicircular region on the forward section, I don't think it's part of the container separation mechanism; it looks too high on the ship to be part of that. I also don't think it's a catapult launching fighters; it could be a brace for such, but it again looks to me as though it's too high up on the ship compared to where the fighters are launched from to be a catapult. I suspect that it's more in the line of a major structural element connecting the flight deck to the spar connecting the forward and rear sections of the ship.

If you're talking about the black line running about a third or half of the way up the connecting section between the forward and rear sections, I don't think that has anything to do with the flight deck or the cargo container; I suspect that it's just a region of the hull which for some reason isn't at the same level as the sections on either side of it. Fighters don't appear to launch from that area, while drones appear to launch from further back and dock with the Gemini somewhere in the gap between the forward and rear sections, sort of at the points where the connecting section meets the rear section. It is in the right area for the drone bay, but I'd tend to suspect it to be more of a gap between docking tubes leading into the drone bay than (part of) a catapult for launching the drones.

Quote
Aside from that, do you think that the variant would fit in a role nicely? Like... a destroyer-sized combat carrier?
Quote
More like a (D) variant, but not uniformly negative.
I agree with HartLord that if this were implemented it'd be more of a not entirely negative (D) variant Gemini than anything else; Geminis are already reasonably competent destroyer-scale combat carriers, and I'm a bit doubtful that improved maneuverability would improve their combat performance enough to make it much better as a dedicated carrier unless the improvement in maneuverability were significant (also depends on whether we're including maximum linear speed in maneuverability, or if we're just talking about increased maximum rotational speed, rotational acceleration, and perhaps linear acceleration when we say 'improved maneuverability'; merely improving the accelerations and turn rate isn't likely to make me consider the containerless Gemini much better, if at all, as a combat vessel).
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2015, 07:21:53 AM »


The black line. That is what made me believe the entire frontal section is detachable(before realizing that includes missile hardpoint and the bridge).

Considering that the Gemini has 2 ballistic TURRETs with too narrow firepower-concentration-zone, and a MISSILE hardpoint, increase in turn rate might not increase combat capacity that much. And being carrier at the first place, Gemini's firepower is somewhat lacking.
Speed increase, and maybe +1 burn speed? That's fine, but I think I'd rater go for standard hull because I'll have to have a freighter anyway.

But again, since we don't usually expect much from a (D) variant, having them even they are underwhelming sounds nice lore-wise.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 07:25:50 AM by Aron0621 »
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xenoargh

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2015, 10:55:57 AM »

How's about something like this?



Here we have a Gemini that's lost its cargo capacity, but rather than being another crappy (D), it's a (M)ilitary variant; two Decks, so it's an effective military choice... but it's still a fragile, weak Gemini in every other way.
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Schwartz

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2015, 01:19:00 PM »

It's a cool idea and I bet it took some work to make the sprite, but a 2 deck destroyer would imbalance the carrier line even further. Gemini is already the most powerful 1 deck carrier, and there are no other destroyers with more than 1 deck. If anything, I'd like to see a 3 deck cruiser some time, just to have a stop-gap to the monster that is the Astral.
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orost

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2015, 01:35:22 PM »

IMO the Gemini is too good as a carrier - the flight deck is described as tiny and should be inferior to the full-size deck on the Condor.

I propose to give the Gemini a build-in hullmod, "Cramped flight deck" that doubles refit times. The military version without cargo containers and an expanded deck wouldn't have the hullmod and would be a competitor to the Condor.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2015, 02:40:00 PM »

Why not the opposite then? The "Carrier" Gemini lose it's cargo and either it's drones or the missile mount to be a mid-tech Condor alternative. Then the "Cargo" variant loose the flight-deck but get a slightly better cargo hold.
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orost

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2015, 05:49:46 PM »

Because I like the idea of a ship with essentially half a flight deck - if you want a little carrier capacity but not a whole destroyer's worth.
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SatchelCharge

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2015, 03:39:33 PM »

Rather than talk about the Gemini I want to say, the whole concept of appreciably different ship variants is very cool to me. I like what Alex has done so far with D variants and I hope there is more to come (M variant is a nice idea Xeno, and HL your cargo space/maneuverability tradeoff - could easily be 2 different stats on another ship), even better if some sprite tweaks are included.

This would help to increase faction interest/differentiation. Just as D variants are common with pirates, certain high tech variants could be more common with the tri tach, and so on.

Even just more diverse weapon variants for each ship would be nice. I'm talking about how every AI Lasher has one of the same two loadouts (it's two, right?)... Slightly lame in my opinion. (if from no other perspective - if ships and weapons are scarce, why does every ship across the sector always perfectly end up with the 'proper' stock loadout?)

I understand this is "balancing" stuff that Alex will probably polish up "later" but still I have to say it, ships are a pretty important part of Starsector and I think this all would add a lot of atmosphere.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 03:42:13 PM by SatchelCharge »
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Aeson

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2015, 08:17:00 PM »

Because I like the idea of a ship with essentially half a flight deck - if you want a little carrier capacity but not a whole destroyer's worth.
I cannot think of a single instance where I would want less than "a whole destroyer's worth" of carrier capacity; a "whole destroyer's worth" of carrier capacity is already very little, and very few fleets which make any use at all of fighters will want less than that. Besides, Gemini cost more than Condors in logistics (though this may change in the next version), are no better as carriers (arguably worse since they cost more to deploy and eat up more of the fleet limit, at least at present), and are hardly better as combatants (for missile support, Condors are better due to their fast missile racks; Gemini can be better in the general fire support role due to their two medium ballistic mounts and won't lack in point defense due to their drones, but Gemini are quite fragile and being in range to use their medium ballistic mounts means that they're either in range or close to being in range of return fire from whatever they're shooting at). I would not use a current Gemini if its performance as a carrier were reduced, nor would I use it over a Condor if its cargo capacity were reduced to a similar level and no other changes were made to the vessel.
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Linnis

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2015, 09:43:05 PM »

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Edit: sorry I just tried to type Unicode in lol

What I want to say is condor is balanced with Gemini,  but a flightdeck less Gemini is way inferior to the mule in combat and tarsus for cost...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 01:12:53 AM by Linnis »
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Megas

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2015, 06:24:23 AM »

The only reason to use Condor over Gemini is its reduced Logistics cost.  Otherwise, Gemini beats Condor in every way that matters (cargo, better weapon mounts).

If Gemini reduced cargo capacity for more burn speed, I might use it.  I do not use carriers at all because base burn of 4 is too slow.
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orost

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Re: Gemini Variant Idea
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2015, 07:22:30 AM »

I cannot think of a single instance where I would want less than "a whole destroyer's worth" of carrier capacity; a "whole destroyer's worth" of carrier capacity is already very little, and very few fleets which make any use at all of fighters will want less than that.

It's not very little, it's enough for 2-3 wings of fighters. Which is a lot early in the game. I would like to usesome fighters very early, at the stage where my fleet consists of a couple frigates, but it's currently not very feasible because the smallest chunk of carrer capacity you can get is too large and expensive. (or at least it would be if Gemini weren't OP like it is) Given that the game is supposed to move in the direction of smaller fleets and smaller battles, I think this will be a more common situation.
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