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Author Topic: Attack its weak point for massive damage  (Read 6498 times)

Gothars

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Attack its weak point for massive damage
« on: July 12, 2015, 03:26:16 AM »

So, while ships already have the engines as sort of a weak point, there is no way to deal extra damage. I imagine it might be a lot of fun to have a tiny area on some ships where you get a damage multiplier if you hit it. (That could be a structural weak point, the bridge, an exposed reactor vent, whatever.)
Not on all ships mind you, only on some big ones where it might make sense. The Aurora for example has some visual gaps in its armor, and the Venture can be tedious to fight against when you're piloting a frigate. Anyway, you'd need a nimble ship or a distraction and very precise weapons to actually hit the weak point.

Besides being just gamey fun, it would also give the ships, uh, a richer interactive texture, if you know what I mean.
And of course it would open up many creative options for modders, too :)
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Xanderzoo

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2015, 09:16:40 AM »

This sounds like a good idea. When I attack a hammerhead for example, I always feel like I should do extra damage when I hit in its thin part.
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Megas

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2015, 10:52:52 AM »

I would not think it would be fun... if the enemy does it to one of my ships!

We already have weak spots in a way.  We focus-fire at one point on the ship, strip armor off that point, then hit hull instead of more armor.
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Protonus

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2015, 09:03:24 PM »

I'm for this idea, honestly.

And seeing some ships generically taking a lot of damage by being a large lump of metal being shot at by another ship with smaller hunks of metals just feels like asteroids bumping into each other.

Uh... some ideas:
1. Some ships should have extra shield generators or armor plating (similar to Scy) virtually protecting certain parts of the ship, or simply reducing the damage into that ship until said shield generators are destroyed.
2. Fuselages, Power Core or the Bridge, as some ships do have those peculiarly protruding out of the hull just waiting to be shot at for obvious reasons.
3. High-temperature Energy weapons melting through armor, creating new weakspots to be shot at by Hull-damage worthy weapons.
4. Weapons to kill crew members in the ship outright. Best way to disable any ship.


One ideas that should not be there:
Critical hits. Because it can get incredibly generic and annoying to deal with. Of course, a stray missile would simply blow up a Capital ship in one shot, but it could be your ship that just so happened to get blasted by.


Um... yeah.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2015, 09:19:58 PM »

There is a really simple reason why this entire idea cannot work.

AI, and I am not even going to get into all the other problems with this for SS which is basically everything you can and cannot think of.

Protonus

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2015, 09:28:44 PM »

There is a really simple reason why this entire idea cannot work.

AI, and I am not even going to get into all the other problems with this for SS which is basically everything you can and cannot think of.

A guy can dream, can't he? ;)


Still, I think the idea would work as long as the AI is managed along with it.
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Debido

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2015, 10:47:40 PM »

This idea has been suggested before, and I believe Alex noted that it wasn't feasible IIRC.
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SatchelCharge

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2015, 06:08:34 PM »

Have to agree with mesotronik, the AI would make this very unfun.
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Dratai

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2015, 08:03:18 AM »

This would make combat so wonky and has no use, mechanically other than making you aim slightly more on one spot which you're already doing cause of how armor works in this game.
The only games that really pull this off are games like freespace. Because it's not about the weak point, it's disabling systems so that the ship you're targeting is less effective. Which is more defensive than offensive and not  a requirement outside of specific objectives.

And part of the reason it works in that old game specifically is because it's about fighter combat and simulated scenarios, where disabling X on target and then defending it until it's captured/taken away is part of the overall plot/the whole scenario is designed around it.
It'd take away from the overall "fun" of this kind of game if you're "restricted" in a sense to shooting at the equivalent of a big glowing box on a giant enemy crab.

Targeting specific points on a thing as a mechanic is more sensible for something like arcade games or full 3d games where a lot of model itself shifts and/or moves.
It could make sense for specific enemy types in missions outside of the campaign where you could get a better damage output by firing into the big charging laser that opens up but again that's more part of the arcade aspect.

This is, as other people have said, not the game for it. If specifically because it's a strategy game more than it is a space flight sim or "side scroller".

Besides, AI issues or not would you rather Alex worked on a redundant, purely optional mechanic rather than the game the fractal softworks team wants to make. Time spent on things we don't need subtract from the things that are required/compliment what's already in the game/things that make the game more fun than something niche and extremely specific (and in my opinion a little weird. We have games like Axelay made in 1992 if you want to do this particular thing, other examples include r-type and major stryker. you know, one ship with a ridiculous arsenal vs many. See also: the bullet hell genre).

If anything this kind of thing belongs in a very specific challenge mode and all the feasibility aside, I think it'd just subtract from the overall game design if you had arbitrary weakpoints (other than places the shield doesn't cover, which is technically a version of this we already have).

Balance issues are probably my biggest concerns with this.
Freelancer is a good example of a game where this is technically -hidden power-.
Missiles and mines in freelancer, being the only explosive weapons, didn't account for some ships having more 'parts' than others. if you hit a ship straight in the middle with one, the amount of extra models attached to the basic frames like wings, would increase the hull damage taken. meaning a 1200 damage missile could teal uptowards 10,000 on the heaviest/clunkiest ship. which would more or less one-shot it. which the game probably wasn't intending you to do.

Hope that puts this into perspective for you.
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Gothars

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2015, 09:54:31 AM »

There is a really simple reason why this entire idea cannot work.

AI

I see no reason why AI should be specifically aware of this mechanic. It doesn't seem to be aware of the armor*, flameout or the weapon disabling mechanics either. As with these, all AI hits that interact with the weakpoint mechanic would be random.

*IIRC except for defense, where it turns the ship to distribute damage

I would not think it would be fun... if the enemy does it to one of my ships!

I think a random hit at a weak spot would be less threatening than a flameout. If you field ships with weakpoints (and put them in exposed positions) is up to you, of course. 



We already have weak spots in a way.  We focus-fire at one point on the ship, strip armor off that point, then hit hull instead of more armor.


This idea has been suggested before, and I believe Alex noted that it wasn't feasible IIRC.

I can't remember that, do you have a link at hand? All I know of is the armor differentiation idea, which is very different :)

What I'm suggesting are tiny weakpoints to make specific ships more interesting (as opponents), not an overhaul of the armor system.



you aim slightly more on one spot which you're already doing cause of how armor works in this game.

Armor doesn't work all that well as a motivation for accurate aiming. You usually don't aim at a specific spot, but at an entire side of the enemy. And mostly at the side the enemy is turning towards you anyway, i.e. the front. Or if you're fast enough to circle him, the back. The only time your priority of aiming for specific gaps in the armor is higher than everything else (dodging fire, relative positioning, timing of fire, disabling of subsystems) is when your fire power and his armor are extremely imbalanced, e.g. a frigate against a heavy armored cruiser.

The only games that really pull this off are games like freespace.

Every egoshooter with a head shot mechanic has this... and its fun.
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Dratai

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2015, 10:03:47 AM »

Every egoshooter with a head shot mechanic has this... and its fun.

I wouldn't call this an ego shooter, though xD

Also those are very specifically multiplayer games, most of the time.
So again, not sure if this is the gametype for it.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2015, 02:41:35 PM »

I see no reason why AI should be specifically aware of this mechanic. It doesn't seem to be aware of the armor*, flameout or the weapon disabling mechanics either. As with these, all AI hits that interact with the weakpoint mechanic would be random.

*IIRC except for defense, where it turns the ship to distribute damage

The AI prefers to flank and fire into the rear of a target whenever possible generally. Which simulates them being aware of engine flameout as a valid attack in a "good enough" manner. The proposed weakspot idea would boil down to RNG of a really nasty kind.

nomadic_leader

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2015, 01:01:43 AM »

I think it could be fun. On certain big ships, as you say. The death star thermal exhaust port and all.

Couldn't we make a mod that automatically reduces to zero a particular armor squares on a certain type of ship as soon as it's deployed?  Someone should try doing this with setArmorValue() or whatever and see how it plays.

Boo hoo about the AI. It's funny how reactionary and obsessed with balance this community is. Anytime someone suggests adding any variety to vanilla, a bunch of people chime in about how it would cause problems with the AI because they once heard the developer say that about something.

Someday after SS is finished someone will come along and make a total conversion scenario that does a bunch of interesting, random stuff like this etc and then everyone will play that instead of vanilla, because even if it's less balanced, it's fun.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2015, 01:57:22 AM »

I think it could be fun. On certain big ships, as you say. The death star thermal exhaust port and all.

Couldn't we make a mod that automatically reduces to zero a particular armor squares on a certain type of ship as soon as it's deployed?  Someone should try doing this with setArmorValue() or whatever and see how it plays.

Boo hoo about the AI. It's funny how reactionary and obsessed with balance this community is. Anytime someone suggests adding any variety to vanilla, a bunch of people chime in about how it would cause problems with the AI because they once heard the developer say that about something.

Someday after SS is finished someone will come along and make a total conversion scenario that does a bunch of interesting, random stuff like this etc and then everyone will play that instead of vanilla, because even if it's less balanced, it's fun.
I'm sorry but it's not about balance: either the AI will be aware of this and instantly kills you whenever you flame-out/overload (not fun), or it doesn't and it's a big cheat for the player and/or a nasty random extra damage (not fun either). It's also an extremely gamey feature IMO. Why would someone put it's fragile and extremely volatile generator anywhere else than deep inside the ship under the maximum armor? That's clearly not the theme of Starsector that on the contrary (want to) emphasis the survivability of ships and their preciousness.

It could somewhat make sense in a very limited set of circumstances, namely arcade boss fights when it's the only way to defeat a stronger opponent... Witch again doesn't fit Vanilla Starsector.

I'll also add that the trend from Alex these days is to combat simplification as the meta-game is getting richer (Missile regen, removal of ballistic ammo, removal of energy flux boost, removal of logistic rating...) and this change would be in complete opposition to the current trend.

As for mods, it's already perfectly doable thanks to Twiglib or other tricks.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 08:24:05 AM by Tartiflette »
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Attack its weak point for massive damage
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2015, 04:37:57 AM »

Q- Does the AI already prefer to fire on areas of a ship's armor that are already down? Or does it not pay any attention to the armor condition of a target?

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