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Author Topic: Fun with missile spam  (Read 16907 times)

Tartiflette

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2015, 12:17:09 PM »

I could see this doing more harm than good,considering that if a single missile from the volley was left, it could just drift around not hitting anything and limit LRM support.
That can be worked around: if the missiles are drifting, they can be ignored and the next salvo is launched.

Megas, the problem is a 100FP fleet of Vigilances has around 45 ships, cost less than 5 supplies per day, and 113 supplies per deployment. 100FP of Eagles represent 10 ships, 18 supplies per day, 320 per deployment and don't stand a chance (there was only 40 of them, I even used the variant with medium Burst PD so they only use their missiles). And I don't even talk about Capital Ships: 5 Onslaughts are exactly 100FP with skeleton crew. That's 25 supplies per day and still 300 more per deployments.
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sotanaht

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2015, 01:40:50 PM »

I could see this doing more harm than good,considering that if a single missile from the volley was left, it could just drift around not hitting anything and limit LRM support.
That can be worked around: if the missiles are drifting, they can be ignored and the next salvo is launched.

Megas, the problem is a 100FP fleet of Vigilances has around 45 ships, cost less than 5 supplies per day, and 113 supplies per deployment. 100FP of Eagles represent 10 ships, 18 supplies per day, 320 per deployment and don't stand a chance (there was only 40 of them, I even used the variant with medium Burst PD so they only use their missiles). And I don't even talk about Capital Ships: 5 Onslaughts are exactly 100FP with skeleton crew. That's 25 supplies per day and still 300 more per deployments.

You forget how fragile frigates are.  That's the reason I would prefer using a Monolith or two rather than a fleet of Hammers even though the hammers are WAY more efficient (2 medium missile mounts, fast missile racks and only 5 deployment points, compared to 3 large, 7 medium at 35 dp without the fast racks).  Every ship that dies needs to be replaced, and most decent sized AI fleets can easily pick off some frigates even if they have to swim through the LRM spam to do it.  Then even IF you have an easy way to find more of those same ships (ie the Omnifactory), AND you have the money to replace them, you still have to retreat from the combat sector and head back to base in order to do it.

My number one concern when designing my fleet is keeping all ships alive through multiple combats, that's the only way I can have an effective campaign if I'm trying to take over a nexeralin system.  What I would really like is better AI so that I can use tactics other than LRM or fighter spam and still expect my ships to survive.  As it is no matter what I order them to do or what I equip them with, they will always put themselves in danger.  Even the LRM ships have to be babysat.  My monoliths with nothing but missiles and PD still want to charge the enemy as soon as it comes within 3k (that's WITH a waypoint order, without one they start charging in from the beginning of battle), so I have to use my player ship to make sure that doesn't happen.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 01:42:40 PM by sotanaht »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2015, 02:37:08 PM »

Check the screenshot, not a single frigate has been destroyed in that engagement (granted it's an extreme edge case).

In other news I implemented my proposition as a mod. The result is a Pilum that is better up close but roughly the same a long range, and better in small numbers but scale less. I think it's a sidestep that has the same effect as the recent speed nerf but with a better feeling overall. (Of course I'm completely partial on that last point ><)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 03:04:12 PM by Tartiflette »
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Megas

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2015, 02:58:38 PM »

@ Tartiflette:  That is one reason why I use frigate hordes.  Aside from being cheap, frigates are fast, recover CR% quickly, and destroy anything (with few or no casualties) in numbers.  If I plan to missile spam (and I have done so before), I would use ten or more Vigilance, backed by twenty or so Wolves, Lashers, and/or Cerberus, and my Hyperion flagship.  The problem you speak of is not limited to mass LRMs, but anything with sufficient range (and numbers).

As for keeping frigates alive, huge frigate hordes have the firepower and numbers to sweep almost anything before they take casualties.  For the few overpowered ships that can munch frigates with ease, such as the enemy Dominator or capital with Combat 10, that is what the Hyperion flagship is for - to teleport and eliminate high-priority targets with a few Reapers.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2015, 05:26:58 PM »

Check the screenshot, not a single frigate has been destroyed in that engagement (granted it's an extreme edge case).

In other news I implemented my proposition as a mod. The result is a Pilum that is better up close but roughly the same a long range, and better in small numbers but scale less. I think it's a sidestep that has the same effect as the recent speed nerf but with a better feeling overall. (Of course I'm completely partial on that last point ><)

Course that's more missile cases that break basic functionality (like ammo-less salamanders). FMRs won't work (or rather, barely work) with LRMs under that system.

Also, Eagles - not exactly best case scenario for flak mounts.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 05:29:52 PM by DatonKallandor »
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Thaago

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2015, 07:38:08 PM »

Yup, LRM Vigilance spam is a thing. I think a better Eagle variant would have more success (in particular 3 phase lances gives an instant kill against any vigilance that comes in range), but at 10-1 the Eagles will lose.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2015, 09:22:18 PM »

but at 10-1 the Eagles will lose.

You can only support 4 Vigilances to 1 Eagle, and you can't even deploy 3 of those Vigilances for the same amount of DP as 1 Eagle. Eagle ought to be able to win that pretty easily.

2 vs. 8 and 5 vs. 14

Of course, the real question is can 12-17 Eagles take on 40-50 Vigilances. I'm not sure which way that would go. Probably to the Vigilances due to how bad PD lasers are at stopping Pilums, but it might vary.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2015, 12:19:52 AM »

Course that's more missile cases that break basic functionality (like ammo-less salamanders). FMRs won't work (or rather, barely work) with LRMs under that system.
That's precisely the point of that method... Preventing the spam of LRM from standoff range with Fast Missiles Racks. The system is still terrific at close range and with other missiles so it emphasis the choice of weapon rather than Pilums being a no-brainer due to their ammo and range.

I agree that Eagles are susceptible to missiles spam, but they are a good "average ship". Only a handful of non-capital ships aren't in it's case unless you turn them into PD boats without any offensive power. (Namely the Enforcers, Dominators, and somewhat the Ventures)
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Thaago

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2015, 06:11:38 AM »

Huh, I wonder where I got 10-1 from :P.

The Eagle is my favorite cruiser hands down, but its just not built to deal with missile spam as it has energy mounts for PD. Anything with full surround double flaks will be fine, anything else is toast against 40 LRM's.
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xenoargh

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2015, 06:48:36 AM »

Fast Missile Racks is basically balance-broken as-is; it didn't get changed when some missiles were given infinite ammo. 

In the Rebal Mod, I fixed that, by giving it a decent cooldown; then it becomes a cyclic boost, not a huge difference in total weight of fire.  That's how it should work.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2015, 07:23:48 AM »

Burst PD probably needs a buff. Hmm, I wonder if making it a BEAM_AS_PROJECTILE weapon would help...
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Megas

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2015, 07:46:07 AM »

Fast Missile Racks is basically balance-broken as-is; it didn't get changed when some missiles were given infinite ammo. 
What?  Fast Missile Racks have three charges now, that recharge slowly.  It used to be unlimited (if vent spammed), and when combined with 500 damage Salamanders, Doom became an overpowered godship for a short time.

Re: burst PD
The only buff it got was cheaper OP cost, which is not enough.  Today, I only use burst PD on ships with too few mounts to support multiple PD or Tactical Lasers.  In any case, energy PD (or most energy for that matter) pales to ballistics.
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xenoargh

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2015, 09:55:03 AM »

The three charges reload at a rate that allows for almost 200% more Pilum spam during the initial engagement, over 3 volleys.  What I did was give it a 30-second timeout; that greatly changes the initial alpha. 

Anyhow, all arguable as to total balance, especially with the slower Pilums (which, personally, I don't care for, as I think it was a nerf too far).
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sotanaht

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Re: Fun with missile spam
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2015, 03:36:41 PM »

Keep in mind that infinite ammo missiles recharge ammo fairly slowly.  Fast missile racks can increase your burst rate for the first few seconds of battle, but after that they are completely useless as 90% of the time you (or especially the AI) will fire a missile as soon as it is reloaded.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 01:30:40 AM by sotanaht »
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