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Author Topic: Why does the Warthog exist?  (Read 5667 times)

Harmful Mechanic

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Why does the Warthog exist?
« on: April 08, 2015, 09:31:28 PM »

As long as we're airing fundamental ship- and fighter-wing design questions, I feel like this one tops the list. It's a brutally slow fighter design that, while tough, is not quite tough enough to compete with the Gladius' turreted LMG/IR Pulse combo in a dogfight, nor powerful enough to replace the Piranha as a low-cost ship-mangler. If it were shielded and lost the machine guns for another assault gun, I could see it as a dive-bomber type, but as is, it's just not enough of a threat to either other fighters or larger ships.

I don't think it's a design that needs to be removed from the game, but it does really highlight that midtech lacks a dedicated dive/torpedo bomber (although Thunders, in quantity, are very good if fragile fighter/bombers). Giving the Warthog Burn Drive and Annihilators in place of the Light Assault Gun might give it more mobility and a clear attack role.
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Dri

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2015, 10:14:08 PM »

Heh, a fighter wing with annihilators would be pretty awesome. Not sure on the balance, though. :D
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Creepin

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2015, 11:14:08 PM »

Soren, you're analyzing the ship on a false presumption that every ship must have "a clear attack role" or whatnot. Well that couldn't be less true. This is not some bloody chess game, this is a fantastic universe, and to be, and feel, alive and convincing it should have good ships, mediocre ships, bad ships, weird ships, rare ships, experimental ships, outdated ships, even ships that are evolutionary deadend.
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Aeson

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2015, 12:09:18 AM »

I am of the opinion that the standard Annihilator Rocket Launcher would probably be a bit too much on a fighter. Maybe a single-volley fighter version of the weapon, but not the standard small mount Annihilator Rocket Launcher.

A part of the issue between the Warthog and the Gladius may simply be the flux stats of the ships and the flux costs of the armament; the two IR Pulse Lasers and LDMG of the Gladius generate about 328 flux per second (effectively 28 flux per second accounting for the dissipation of the Gladius), while the Warthog's pair of LMGs and its LAG generate about 198 flux per second (effectively 48 flux per second accounting for the Warthog's dissipation), which when combined with the flux capacities of the Gladius and Warthog means that the Warthog runs out of flux capacity almost 4 times faster (~16 seconds to fill up its 750 flux capacity as opposed to the ~54 seconds required for the Gladius to hit its flux capacity of 1500).

Another part of the issue might be the DPS that the ships have. On the surface, it would appear that the ships are relatively equal in DPS; the Gladius nominally has 720/408/512 DPS versus shields/armor/hull while the Warthog nominally has 704/476/472 DPS versus shields/armor/hull, if I've done the math right. Unfortunately, about 624 of the Warthog's anti-shield DPS is only 300 range whereas its flux-hungry LAG (which provides only 80 anti-shield DPS and generates a net of 10 flux per second) has 600 range, whereas about 304 of the anti-shield (and anti-armor, and anti-hull) DPS of the Gladius comes from its pair of 500-range IR Pulse Lasers, which generate a net of only 3 flux per second. The Warthog would probably benefit greatly if its kinetic weapons were at least as long-ranged as its LAG was, at least if it had the flux to support those weapons and is intended to be an anti-ship fighter as the designation "assault fighter" implies. It might be enough of an improvement if the Warthog dropped its LMGs for LACs or LDACs and gained enough flux to keep its current firing time or improve upon it a bit, though this would probably cost it somewhat in its performance as a dogfighter.

Soren, you're analyzing the ship on a false presumption that every ship must have "a clear attack role" or whatnot. Well that couldn't be less true. This is not some bloody chess game, this is a fantastic universe, and to be, and feel, alive and convincing it should have good ships, mediocre ships, bad ships, weird ships, rare ships, experimental ships, outdated ships, even ships that are evolutionary deadend.
I agree within limits, but if the game's background information suggests that a fighter or ship should be good at what it does, then the gameplay ought to support that. The Warthog is supposed to be the vehicle of choice for the assault fighter role, but as far as I can tell it's outperformed in this role by the Thunder (which is already a decent interceptor and fighter-bomber) and the Gladius (already a decent heavy fighter), and probably will be by the Xyphos as well if that gets a Pulse Laser in place of its Phase Lance as was suggested by one of Alex's posts; the only feature of the Broadsword that makes me question whether or not that'd be better, too, is its significantly worse flux capacity.

This argument seems more appropriate for use against changes to the Longbow (which is described as having an 'unusual' thruster configuration) and Trident (which looks like an attempt at making a self-escorting torpedo bomber) than against the Warthog (which as noted is described as the fighter of choice for the assault fighter role). It also looks like the Assault Fighter role was an evolutionary dead-end in the fighter development of Starsector (the same might be true of the Multi-Role Fighter, though that might have evolved into the torpedo bomber). The designation, after all, doesn't appear among the high-tech fighters, and I'd tend to agree; bombers seem better for anything larger than a destroyer and heavy fighters seem at minimum adequate for the rest.

Quote
I don't think it's a design that needs to be removed from the game, but it does really highlight that midtech lacks a dedicated dive/torpedo bomber (although Thunders, in quantity, are very good if fragile fighter/bombers).
(Not really relevant, but there's circumstantial evidence that the Piranha is, or at least was, intended to be a midline bomber, and if anything counts as a dive bomber, I'd count the Piranha as one. The Conquest, the midline capital ship, was developed just prior to the popularization of fighter craft, suggesting that an effective bomber was a relatively new thing. The Piranha's hull color, if you examine the sprite, appears more similar to that of the Gladius, Warthog, and Thunder than  to that of the Broadsword, Talon, and Mining Pod, and additionally appears similar to the hull color of the early midline ships like the Gemini, Conquest, and Hammerhead. It also had decent flux stats for a ship whose armament didn't include anything that generated flux, at least until its swarmer missiles were replaced by an LMG, and even so 200 flux capacity and 40 flux dissiipation is more than sufficient for the LMG's 15 flux per burst and 18.75 flux per second, especially on a vessel lacking shields.)
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Tartiflette

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2015, 12:53:00 AM »

I am of the opinion that the standard Annihilator Rocket Launcher would probably be a bit too much on a fighter. Maybe a single-volley fighter version of the weapon, but not the standard small mount Annihilator Rocket Launcher.
Or a "fighter" size one that only fires 2 rockets per volley.
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Pushover

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2015, 04:28:33 AM »

I am of the opinion that the standard Annihilator Rocket Launcher would probably be a bit too much on a fighter. Maybe a single-volley fighter version of the weapon, but not the standard small mount Annihilator Rocket Launcher.
Or a "fighter" size one that only fires 2 rockets per volley.
Perhaps make a more ammo-limited fighter, such that it fires 5 rockets per volley, but has 10 rockets. That way it needs a carrier to refit at, but is a powerful (if slow) strike fighter. Then again, a loadout like this would fit better on a faster fighter.

I'm not exactly sure what the role of 'Assault Fighter' is supposed to mean in space, but according to Alex's view of what an assault weapon is:
Quote from: Alex
Assault
The weapon has a high damage output, but limited range. Assault weapons are usually good on well-armored ships that can afford to take a beating to dish one out – or on faster ships that are hard to hit.
This means you are looking at a hard hitting short range fighter, either well armored, with limited range, or fast.

Regarding ship roles, every ship should have its own niche, and be good at that niche. We have (D) variants for ships that are just not as good, but there are flavor reasons for them. Mining Drones are obviously bad, but at least flavor-wise, they aren't supposed to be good at combat. Their niche is probably their ability to mine asteroids, but since we can't do that yet, they are bad. A niche might be rather narrow, and the ship might be useless outside of it (the Construction Rig certainly springs to mind), but at least the ship should fill that role.
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Aeson

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2015, 10:23:39 AM »

As far as dropping the LAG for a missile of some kind, I'm a bit uncertain of that. Yes, it'd probably be better than the current Warthog, but it'd also make the current Warthog much more like the current bombers (or the Thunder) than like the Heavy Fighters of which I suspect it's supposed to be a specialized subtype. I really think that improving its flux statistics and perhaps swapping out the LMGs for longer-ranged kinetic weapons of similar power would be a better way to improve it. Improving its speed a bit wouldn't hurt, either.

Quote
I'm not exactly sure what the role of 'Assault Fighter' is supposed to mean in space
I'm of the opinion that it's probably "heavy fighter specialized for anti-frigate and anti-destroyer work," or less likely "bomber with a focus against frigates and destroyers which has some anti-fighter capability" (this I feel is more a description of the Multi-Role Fighter). A pair of LMGs and a LAG is an adequate armament for anti-fighter work and for engaging frigates and destroyers, though as noted earlier I feel it could use some work balancing out the weapon ranges so that the kinetic weapons can start working on the shields of the target at least as soon as the HE gun does. LAGs are certainly more useful against frigates and destroyers than the heavy torpedoes of the Daggers and Tridents or the unguided bombs of the Piranhas, and they're probably a little more useful for anti-fighter work than the Ion Cannons (and certainly more useful for anti-fighter work than the Harpoon) of the Thunders.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2015, 10:30:21 AM »

This is not some bloody chess game, this is a fantastic universe, and to be, and feel, alive and convincing it should have good ships, mediocre ships, bad ships, weird ships, rare ships, experimental ships, outdated ships, even ships that are evolutionary deadend.
I agree within limits, but if the game's background information suggests that a fighter or ship should be good at what it does, then the gameplay ought to support that.

Pretty much this. A game with a fantastic universe but terrible balance will quickly see players adopting strategies that undermine rather than reinforce the verisimilitude of that universe. Even if I don't use a ship or weapon myself, I shouldn't look at it in an enemy lineup and say 'Oh, that's no problem, that thing is garbage'. Even Hounds can really hurt you; I'd like to see the Warthog make up for being painfully slow with some kind of combat performance, because right now you spend time getting it into position... and it just doesn't do that much.

(The idea that I want Starsector to be chesslike is beneath moronic. I can rant at length about why chess is a bad game to model computer strategy games on, and I'm sure you can too - it's an easy one. But games that have units you can ignore are games that need a little tweak.)
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mendonca

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2015, 11:15:13 AM »

I wonder what would happen if you upped the armor to say - enforcer levels (about double armor if I remember correctly, which I may not)

As it's (probably) only one armor cell, might not be too unbalanced but could see it cruise through kinetic and fragmentation fire quite easily. Might help distinguish it.
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Megas

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2015, 11:20:39 AM »

To me, Warthog is a Broadsword that trades speed and Swarmers for a LAG.  Low speed cripples the Warthog.
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Xanderzoo

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2015, 11:29:42 AM »

Warthogs are so slow they are a joke. They have good armor and weapons, but their speed cripples them. I don't want them to be zipping around like Thunders, but right now the are slower than destroyers.
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Aeson

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2015, 12:37:46 PM »

I wonder what would happen if you upped the armor to say - enforcer levels (about double armor if I remember correctly, which I may not)
Enforcers have 750 armor, Warthogs have 125. If by "Enforcer level armor" you mean "approximately equal armor rating," that's about a sixfold increase in armor, which I tend to think would be excessive. If by "Enforcer level armor" you mean (Warthog armor)/(average fighter armor) ~= (Enforcer armor)/(average destroyer armor), then it's already roughly there, though how close depends on whether or not you include carriers and civilian ships for the average destroyer armor (including carriers and mules but excluding other civilian ships, Enforcers have 1.67 times the average destroyer armor, while Warthogs have ~1.7 times the average fighter armor; adding civilian ships to the destroyer average pushes Enforcers to twice the average destroyer armor; this ignores hullmods, D variants, and character skills).

Warthogs are so slow they are a joke. They have good armor and weapons, but their speed cripples them. I don't want them to be zipping around like Thunders, but right now the are slower than destroyers.
In all honesty, a lot of fighters can be slower than destroyers if you take Augmented Engines and character skills into account, or if you include the zero flux speed bonus. A Medusa with Augmented Engines is at least as fast as any fighter that isn't a Talon, Wasp, Thunder, Gladius, or Broadsword; Hammerheads with Augmented Engines and Sunders with Augmented Engines are faster than anything that isn't a Xyphos, Dagger, Talon, Wasp, Thunder, Gladius, or Broadsword. If you include Helmsmanship 10 (+20% maximum speed), the Xyphos and Dagger fall off the "faster than a Hammerhead or Sunder" list. If you also include the 100% CR speed bonus (a further +10% maximum speed), then the Broadsword and Gladius fall off the "faster than a Medusa" list.
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Xanderzoo

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2015, 12:43:54 PM »

Now that I think about it, when I captain an Onslaught I move faster than a Warthog. :)
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mendonca

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2015, 01:27:43 PM »

I wonder what would happen if you upped the armor to say - enforcer levels (about double armor if I remember correctly, which I may not)
Enforcers have 750 armor, Warthogs have 125. If by "Enforcer level armor" you mean "approximately equal armor rating," that's about a sixfold increase in armor, which I tend to think would be excessive.

Hehe ... yeah, I just went to check the csv a couple of minutes ago. For some reason I recalled the Warthog having 400ish armour, clearly this isn't right :)

I'm going to try it anyway and see how it fares ...

e: Well ... they go down easily enough under plasma cannon fire ... if that's a good benchmark ... (yeah, far too high, but my experiments will continue in to the weekend ...)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 01:59:52 PM by mendonca »
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Why does the Warthog exist?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2015, 03:26:15 PM »

There was a modded bomber version of warthog in Lotus Conglomerate. They had 2 annihilators instead of LAG. I found them to be less threatening than piranhas. Mostly due to their slow speed. They did do better against clumped frigates though. And now that wolf and lasher have front shields they'd be at higher risk too.

I was always under the impression they were inspired by RL warthogs(the A-10). They fly slow, are hard to destroy, and pump tons of ordinance into ground targets. The lag doesn't feel as impressive as the gau on the real life counterpart though. With a bump to speed and a slightly more aggressive ai I think they'd be a credible threat to most ships. I don't know what the computer does differently than i do because their warthogs derp around more than mine do. I also blob fighters something fierce, so they have more time to derp about and don't really die any faster than my other fighters. They still die faster than the toughest fighter feels like it should though. I suspect it's because they're slow enough and big enough that medium and large mount weapons stand a reasonable chance of hitting them
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