Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

Pages: 1 ... 35 36 [37] 38 39 ... 90

Author Topic: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 522911 times)

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 20015
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #540 on: November 08, 2015, 10:51:47 AM »

@nomadic_leader: (... never mind, ninja'ed by Gothars. Pretty much everything I was going to say.)


@Alex - Speaking of testing, I was wondering how you go about doing the testing on your end. I've been doing a bunch of work on an Android game lately, and it never seems very clear on where/when/if to start using unit tests and whatnot. Admittedly, I'm still building the core bits of the game engine, but I'm having trouble finding any clear places to insert tests and QC stuff (especially for classes that handle user input and whatnot). What have you been doing in that regards? Figured I'd ask since your stuff has generally been pretty bug-free in my experience.

Well... in my experience, unit tests haven't been useful for much of anything. If you're working on a math or string library, especially with multiple committers? Sure, unit tests would be *great*. Something more real-world, though? It just gets a lot less practical. Also, as you point out, there are issues when you start dealing with user input. Still could be worked with using mock objects and such, but to me the extra effort, extra complexity, and saddling the code with stuff that makes it harder to change just aren't remotely worth it.

Personally, I just try to minimize the opportunity for bugs to creep in (i.e. don't do anything fancy, put in null checks where you don't think you need them, that sort of thing), and test the code at the time of writing it. And never assume that the simplest change you made is just going to work. The number of times I thought it would, tested anyway, and then found a bug are too many to count. I think it's more of a mindset thing than anything.

Of course, bugs still do creep in. But they do with unit tests, too. In the end, I think it's finding something that works for you. Even if it involves unit tests; I won't judge :)
Logged

kruqnut

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #541 on: November 08, 2015, 11:02:34 AM »

kinda off topic but ive been jazzed about the officers for a while. I'm sure they're implimented in a simpler way but I loved the way they handles Generals from Rome: Total War 1. It was tons of fun after you were in a good ways into a campaign to look at the family tree and discover the "personality" each general had developed as a course of his actions. I just hope the officers can build rank and efficency etc. and I NEED this release alex :P
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4324
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #542 on: November 08, 2015, 11:11:49 AM »

kinda off topic but ive been jazzed about the officers for a while. I'm sure they're implimented in a simpler way but I loved the way they handles Generals from Rome: Total War 1. It was tons of fun after you were in a good ways into a campaign to look at the family tree and discover the "personality" each general had developed as a course of his actions. I just hope the officers can build rank and efficency etc. and I NEED this release alex :P

That was a big topic after the officer blog post. Short answer: Maybe some day.

In lieu of detailed replies to everyone saying similar things, I'll just say instead that I totally get the appeal of adding something unique to each officer :)

It's less clear exactly what shape that will need to take, though, so I think it makes sense to leave it be for the moment, implement a bunch of other features that are more impactful for the time spent, and perhaps get back around to it either when it's a good opportunity to work it in, or when it is the most impactful thing to work on.
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2735
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #543 on: November 08, 2015, 12:18:47 PM »

Well... in my experience, unit tests haven't been useful for much of anything. If you're working on a math or string library, especially with multiple committers? Sure, unit tests would be *great*. Something more real-world, though? It just gets a lot less practical. Also, as you point out, there are issues when you start dealing with user input. Still could be worked with using mock objects and such, but to me the extra effort, extra complexity, and saddling the code with stuff that makes it harder to change just aren't remotely worth it.

Personally, I just try to minimize the opportunity for bugs to creep in (i.e. don't do anything fancy, put in null checks where you don't think you need them, that sort of thing), and test the code at the time of writing it. And never assume that the simplest change you made is just going to work. The number of times I thought it would, tested anyway, and then found a bug are too many to count. I think it's more of a mindset thing than anything.

Of course, bugs still do creep in. But they do with unit tests, too. In the end, I think it's finding something that works for you. Even if it involves unit tests; I won't judge :)

Unit tests are great for components of the game that you don't want to change/regress but expect to break often.  For a networked game, a determinism test would be very useful, for example.
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 20015
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #544 on: November 08, 2015, 01:50:06 PM »

Unit tests are great for components of the game that you don't want to change/regress but expect to break often.  For a networked game, a determinism test would be very useful, for example.

Hmm. Given that definition, this sounds more like functional testing rather than unit testing. I mean, you're not testing the component at that point - it's not changing, so why would it break - but the things that are feeding into it. And you'd have to keep updating the test to make sure it covers new things that aren't part of that component but factor in anyway (e.g. a new weapon, etc). So that's adding extra dev costs to a lot of things. Is it worth it? Maybe, maybe not. I guess, as usual, it just depends.
Logged

kazi

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 714
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #545 on: November 08, 2015, 02:27:50 PM »

Interesting. I was coming to a similar conclusion on the topic of unit tests. The only time I've ever really found a use for them was when writing a data analysis package in R. I was just starting to feel bad about not using them for other stuff because I've seen a lot of material that's really pushing them.

On the topic of the actual update, I like that you have to pick a faction and stick with it now. I always thought it was dumb that players could be friends with everyone all the time and just hunt pirates. I made my mod faction hostile to everyone else so people would have to actually choose a side for once. Good to see this is happening in the base game too. The whole "pirate hunter" meta got really old quickly, as you'd only end up fighting a small fraction of the game's ships (and pirate fleets always seemed to be straight up smaller/easier, which is why people started complaining that the endgame was too easy).
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 02:33:06 PM by kazi »
Logged

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2735
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #546 on: November 08, 2015, 02:33:39 PM »

Unit tests are great for components of the game that you don't want to change/regress but expect to break often.  For a networked game, a determinism test would be very useful, for example.

Hmm. Given that definition, this sounds more like functional testing rather than unit testing. I mean, you're not testing the component at that point - it's not changing, so why would it break - but the things that are feeding into it. And you'd have to keep updating the test to make sure it covers new things that aren't part of that component but factor in anyway (e.g. a new weapon, etc). So that's adding extra dev costs to a lot of things. Is it worth it? Maybe, maybe not. I guess, as usual, it just depends.

My workplace may have a very... odd use of testing terminology.
Logged

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4929
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #547 on: November 08, 2015, 03:49:55 PM »

Quote
Atlas: removed flight deck
I hope it got a buff to make up for that; it was one of its few charms :)
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

Ratheden

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Slaughter cannot be spelled without Laughter.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #548 on: November 08, 2015, 09:34:42 PM »

Quote
Atlas: removed flight deck
I hope it got a buff to make up for that; it was one of its few charms :)
True...
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 20015
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #549 on: November 08, 2015, 10:53:04 PM »

My workplace may have a very... odd use of testing terminology.

Fair enough :) Don't want to get hung up on semantics, anyway - automated tests are automated tests, pretty much.


Quote
Atlas: removed flight deck
I hope it got a buff to make up for that; it was one of its few charms :)

Well, I suppose it did in the burn level department, along with all other capitals :)
Logged

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 20015
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #550 on: November 09, 2015, 10:13:51 AM »

I was just starting to feel bad about not using them for other stuff because I've seen a lot of material that's really pushing them.

(It's just one of those things where a particular methodology is useful in a particular setting, and then lots of people try to push it for everything because either they make money off it - books, seminars, etc - or they think it's a magic bullet that'll solve their dev problems. Happens all the time; "agile" is another one that's been in vogue in the last while... anyway, point is, if you see any particular approach to coding being pushed, it doesn't mean much.)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 10:33:24 AM by Alex »
Logged

icepick37

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1788
  • Go.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #551 on: November 09, 2015, 10:28:26 AM »

Yeah I'll second that in a huge way.

Tools, processes and methodologies are all awesome in their place. Just don't expect them to save you. Not that I am a long time developer by any means. Long enough, though.  :p
Logged
“I [may] not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
- Voltaire

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 9916
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #552 on: November 09, 2015, 10:51:32 AM »

Reminds me of flowcharts back in the day.
Logged

kazi

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 714
    • View Profile
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #553 on: November 09, 2015, 01:48:01 PM »

Yup, been seeing that "Agile" word a lot.  :P

Completely different field, but a funny read nonetheless: http://pairedends.com (a satirical website about one of the biggest circle-jerks in genomics right now). Also, watch the video.
Logged

kruqnut

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #554 on: November 09, 2015, 02:46:05 PM »

You should develop one of these new games with kickstarter like Star Citizen, where you spend all your effort tlaking about how great your game is without actually developing anything, then people just give u money!

I follow a game called camelot unchained and im starting to think it's just a scheme because it doesn't seem that far in development and all the lead designer does is talk about stupid *** like "wow look at this new splash art!"
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 35 36 [37] 38 39 ... 90