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Author Topic: Talk about command points  (Read 5851 times)

sotanaht

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Talk about command points
« on: March 23, 2015, 07:48:16 AM »

Even with no skill investment, I always seem to have a surplus of command points in every battle.  All battle objectives grant bonus CP and due to the hands-off nature of the tactics system you probably never need to give more than 3 or 4 orders in an entire fight.

This especially makes the advanced tactics skill useless beyond the marine effectiveness bonus (which isn't very useful either), and it makes com relays not worth taking at all.

At this point I think complaining about the hands-off command approach is unlikely to do much good.  At the very least though Com relays need to grant some kind of bonus other than just +3cp, just to make capturing them interesting.

Or maybe I'm wrong and people give a LOT more orders in their playstyle?  I've generally found the most effective thing to do is to place a couple of capture orders on the objectives that actually benefit me (nav becons are especially good), an attack order on an objective where I want the fighting to happen to keep my ships from spreading out too much, and then never issuing another order unless I desperately need to retreat a ship or intercept (which never works anyway).  Maybe one or two more orders if I'm using carriers and fighters, but that's about it.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 08:08:29 AM »

The gist of what I've seen discussed is that most of the time people don't use more than the starting 3-4 CP, but there's a few strategies (carrier groups for example) that need every CP they can get. I feel command points is a mechanic that doesn't do much, if anything, for the game.
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Megas

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2015, 12:17:46 PM »

I spend 3 to 4 CP on objectives at the start of each battle, then I may spend more telling my ships either to avoid enemies that can kill them easily (retreat or move elsewhere) or focus-fire on a priority target.  Eventually, I will spend 2 SP on Advanced Tactics for a few more OP (when small fleets are no longer profitable), then raise to 5 for better boarding parties.  By then, 8 CP is more than enough for me.  I try to build ships that can take care of themselves, and avoid those that require micromanagement to function effectively.

This is one reason why I chain flagships, no need to rely on CP of only my flagship is in play.  Sometimes, I try to keep DP no more than 40 to squelch objectives (although optimal play requires big fleets for powerleveling).
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 07:52:46 AM »

If you have more specialized ships then having more CP is really worth it. For example i frequently have a very dedicated pd ship that i have go where ever the most fighters are. I like to make ships that are high Explosive/Kinetic mirrors of each other and always have them pair up for assignments. The assignment system gets a little finicky so it sometimes requires fiddling. If i have an EMP ship like shade or omen i manually have it flank the big mastery ships like dominator or onslaught.

As was mentioned they're invaluable for fighter fleets. If you don't clump on targets then your fighters will be torn to ribbons piece meal. It's also handy to move your carriers to just behind the front lines. Especially now that the pilums range is effectively 7K instead of 10K SU.

You can build a big fleet of balanced ships that are all able to handle themselves in most situations, but sometimes that's not good enough. Like when you start going after combat 10 bounties. In situations like that i really wish i could apply 2 or more commands to the same ship. Like have bunches of long ranged ships harry and then have all my bombers strike them when close to overload but not have my previously harrying ships derp around and fight other things.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 09:56:04 AM »

Especially now that the pilums range is effectively 7K instead of 10K SU.

The hotfix for that is to double the flight time in the .csv file, IIRC.
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sotanaht

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 10:53:54 AM »

If you have more specialized ships then having more CP is really worth it. For example i frequently have a very dedicated pd ship that i have go where ever the most fighters are. I like to make ships that are high Explosive/Kinetic mirrors of each other and always have them pair up for assignments. The assignment system gets a little finicky so it sometimes requires fiddling. If i have an EMP ship like shade or omen i manually have it flank the big mastery ships like dominator or onslaught.

As was mentioned they're invaluable for fighter fleets. If you don't clump on targets then your fighters will be torn to ribbons piece meal. It's also handy to move your carriers to just behind the front lines. Especially now that the pilums range is effectively 7K instead of 10K SU.

You can build a big fleet of balanced ships that are all able to handle themselves in most situations, but sometimes that's not good enough. Like when you start going after combat 10 bounties. In situations like that i really wish i could apply 2 or more commands to the same ship. Like have bunches of long ranged ships harry and then have all my bombers strike them when close to overload but not have my previously harrying ships derp around and fight other things.

You can build a big fleet of ships that can handle any and all comers with minimal CP needs, but it involves exclusively t1 and t2 ships with ideal weapons, meaning that losing even one frigate in that fleet is a pain to recoup.  I do it with a Paragon, 2 Dooms, and some tempests, shades, and afflictors (I find those to all have a very high survival rate).

Anyway, the way the AI works a lot of what you suggested either doesn't work or requires tricky workarounds like grouping/ungrouping to disengage.  For instance, having those paired shield/armor killers is pointless compared to putting shield/armor weapons (or just energy) on the same ship.  Reason being they are both going to fire at once at whatever target they feel like regardless of what you tell them to do, so the net result is the same.  Specializing is more worthwhile when you have a strategy to go with it, put shield killing weapons and then armor killing missiles or emp, or send armor killers against front/no shield targets while you personally keep them occupied, but none of that actually requires CP to be effective.

On an unrelated note, not a fan of Pilums.  Putting those on a ship is like saying "this ship not participating in battle".  They are far less effective 90% of the time than simply having another frigate in the fray.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 12:03:15 PM »

lol, you haven't seen a Vigilance fleet with 20+ Vigilances spamming Pilums.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 12:46:44 PM »

lol, you haven't seen a Vigilance fleet with 20+ Vigilances spamming Pilums.
If you need a fleet of 20 ships all spamming Pilums for them to be effective, then they aren't effective
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sotanaht

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 12:57:31 PM »

lol, you haven't seen a Vigilance fleet with 20+ Vigilances spamming Pilums.

No I haven't, but I think that might be the next gimmick fleet I try out.

Of course, I could also equip my Vigilances with Typhoons and pulse guns.  Or really any missile-dependent configuration.  Gimmick fleets can be fun, but that doesn't really make the Pilum LRMs a favorite weapon.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 04:12:24 PM »

lol, you haven't seen a Vigilance fleet with 20+ Vigilances spamming Pilums.
If you need a fleet of 20 ships all spamming Pilums for them to be effective, then they aren't effective

20+ Vigilances is end-game. You don't need that many when you're not fighting Combat 10 Onslaughts.

The reason I use Pilums is that the whole fleet can focus fire on one target or spread as needed. It's not actually a gimmick fleet, but rather the extreme end of the vanilla Starsector missile spam school of thought. It just comes across as a gimmick because it's extreme.


Getting back on topic, maybe large number of command points would be better if we could give stricter commands. If you could get ships to work together better by giving commands (say formations*), then there might be reason to use them in a wider variety of fleet setups.

*An example of just two ships forming a useful formation would be a Monitor and Lasher. The Monitor closes in and the Lasher uses it as a shield.

I suspect a lot of ancient and medieval formations would be useful in Starsector, but it would require the ships in the formation think about each other in more complex ways than "avoid" and "stay in this relative spot". Maybe a "yada-yada" formation level AI plus a "yada-yada formation" ship level AI. Like how there is a "pursuit" ship level AI currently.
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Megas

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Re: Talk about command points
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 04:49:07 PM »

20+ frigates is a viable fleet configuration.  In endgame, I often use frigate swarms of 40+ ships, often with 20+ Wolves or Lashers.  10+ Vigilances can flood the map with lots of Pilums, and they will kill ships.
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