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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Planet Search Overhaul (07/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2c "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-06-15)  (Read 3192640 times)

vicegrip

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6015 on: May 21, 2024, 04:39:54 PM »

I have been trying out the update and I've noticed that factions at war are likely to send massive blockade fleets to enemy systems, mimicking those sent out by the League during a colony crisis event. This causes a significant problem with antagonistic factions such as the IX Battlegroup, especially when they're hostile to the rest of the Sector and start out in a single system. Because the blockade fleets are the size of the largest end game invasion forces, this can cause rather ridiculous situations such as this:
Spoiler

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A three faction blockade of around 25 major fleets camping the IX home system a year into the game, causing the local defenders to exhaust themselves so that any subsequent invasion is almost guaranteed to succeed by default. Note that in the example there are only 4 extra modded factions active, and 2 out of the 3 blockading fleets are vanilla.

This leaves me in the rather awkward position of either redesigning the faction so that they no longer start the game hostile to all others, or creating a custom system defense response that would be so strong, it would make the system almost impervious to player aggression. Neither of those situations are ideal, and the latter would especially seem extremely contrived. I hope you can take a look at the blockade mechanics and bring it to a scale at least somewhat resembling the escalating invasion mechanics that already exist. Thanks.

SanityAdrift

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6016 on: May 22, 2024, 01:35:09 PM »

Might as well pop in here as well as this mod is the only one i can think of atm that might have any relevance to 'markets', and is the the only major update i did before this shenanigans started.
So, uh, any idea if there could be some sort of interaction that could cause this?
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SanityAdrift

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6017 on: May 22, 2024, 09:07:42 PM »

Adding the full mod list would probably help.
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Histidine

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6018 on: May 23, 2024, 05:24:23 AM »

Maybe I'll just apply the crude hack of disallowing blockades of hostile-to-all factions (as defined by that faction's Nex config file).


Galatian Academy decivilizing isn't a Nex thing, whether in this version or the previous one. Industrial.Evolution does some things (specifically, creating its own Academy market that, unlike the vanilla one, gets added to the economy) that makes it possible, although left to its own devices it should still be fine. Does the Galatia star system keep getting raided and/or blockaded?
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vicegrip

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6019 on: May 23, 2024, 06:35:48 AM »

I think blockades overall need fine tuning, since right now factions are throwing 5-7 full sized fleets at each other almost right out of the gate, and never stop doing so. The sheer scale of blockade fleets compared to invasion fleets just seems really off.

Also this might be one of those lore vs gameplay moments, but if anything, a hostile to all faction is probably more likely to draw a response from multiple factions who are willing to set aside their differences temporarily to crush a rabid foe. I think it's more the execution of how blockades currently work that needs rebalancing. The Persean blockade was a major crisis for the player, and was not repeated once the fleet was defeated. Events of such scale probably shouldn't be happening twice a year or more on infinite repeat.

DownTheDrain

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6020 on: May 23, 2024, 06:47:07 AM »

Haven't really run into any blockades myself but I see them in the log quite a bit.
If that screenshot is indicative of how they usually turn out then yeah, that could do with some adjustments.
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SanityAdrift

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6021 on: May 23, 2024, 09:42:26 AM »

Galatian Academy decivilizing isn't a Nex thing, whether in this version or the previous one. Industrial.Evolution does some things (specifically, creating its own Academy market that, unlike the vanilla one, gets added to the economy) that makes it possible, although left to its own devices it should still be fine. Does the Galatia star system keep getting raided and/or blockaded?

As far as i could tell, there was no blockading or pirate activity, no pertinent dialogue options at Derikuyu or Ancyra either
As for IndEvo, maybe it's a factor but it hasn't been an issue before, i only noticed it after updating Nex to 0.11.2 . There is of course a chance that i simply didn't pay enough attention the academy prior  to these two campaign starts. In both occasions it loading  a prior  save did not change the outcome.
I am at the moment trying to see if it still happens with an earlier Nex version.
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Boboy

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6022 on: May 28, 2024, 05:56:08 AM »

Hey, is there a way to disable or limit blockade against NPC, the Hegemony is abusing it against smaller faction and without the player help they simply loose the whole systeme which can be problemetic for small faction like say the dicktat.
anyway the mod is still incredibly good love you guys. :P
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Sominar

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6023 on: May 28, 2024, 07:09:47 AM »

Hi. I apologize in advance if this has been asked already, but I can't find a post on the matter. Is there a way to control how many weapons markets sell in general? The closest thing that I've seen is the mod "Mo' Weapons Mo' Ships" but it's been dead for a while now.

Sometimes I just want to have markets sell a ludicrous amount of weapons like triple digit hellbores and the like simply to skip the whole merry go round of finding weapons in every market even if I have stellar networks to see where to find them, as well as no longer have to bother having to kleptomaniacly hoard every weapon I see into the abandoned station around corvus or equivalent. What's worse, the last part doesn't even do much since if you're playing a modded faction it means you have a ton of weapons of the factions you're playing against and not of your own anyway.

Thanks in advance.
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Shogouki

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6024 on: May 28, 2024, 12:35:06 PM »

Even aside from "hostile to all" factions the amount of blockades seems extremely high and very frequent.  I don't know if there's a way to assign a "cost" to the blockades so that factions can't just throw them out endlessly but they could definitely use some kind of tweaking.

Edit: Just thought I'd ask if there were any way to manually modify the blockade settings so that they're not nearly so frequent as I think the drastic increase in these is hurting game performance.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 02:54:53 PM by Shogouki »
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Histidine

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6025 on: May 29, 2024, 02:51:29 AM »

Edit: Just thought I'd ask if there were any way to manually modify the blockade settings so that they're not nearly so frequent as I think the drastic increase in these is hurting game performance.

There isn't a way to control blockade frequency [without strategic AI] right now, although with strategic AI it's possible to change the blockade action (in data/config/exerelin/strategicAIConfig.json) to alter its frequency (or simply add "enabled":false, to completely block it).

I may expose the (without strategic AI) chance of a raid becoming a blockade in a near-future update; already removed in dev the raid-type discount on invasion points (where raids cost a faction 35% fewer points compared to an invasion with the same fleets). If anyone has other ideas for nerfing them (without making them completely ineffectual, e.g. if they become too small to outmatch defenders) I could try those too.

Hi. I apologize in advance if this has been asked already, but I can't find a post on the matter. Is there a way to control how many weapons markets sell in general? The closest thing that I've seen is the mod "Mo' Weapons Mo' Ships" but it's been dead for a while now.
Closest I've got right now is the doubleSubmarketWeapons setting in the exerelin_config.json file (not available via the LunaLib ingame menu).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 07:42:27 PM by Histidine »
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DownTheDrain

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6026 on: May 29, 2024, 11:14:25 AM »

If anyone has other ideas for nerfing them (without making them completely ineffectual, e.g. if they become too small to outmatch defenders) I could try those too.

You could always go the opposite route and make them a big deal with massive fleets, like it works for the crisis, but only trigger them under very specific circumstances.

Then again, I already feel that way about invasions. It looks a bit silly how often they spawn, especially when the same planets get invaded 4 or 5 times a year. Maybe that's different without modded factions, or maybe I'm to blame for coming to the aid of defenders too often, but for my next playthrough I'll set "pointsRequiredForInvasionFleet" much, much higher. Already doubled it and I honestly don't feel a difference.
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vicegrip

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6027 on: May 29, 2024, 01:22:36 PM »

I think one of the issues is that blockades won't trigger system defense responders if it spawns far from a colony. Making local defenders respond to every blockade would turn the event into an invasion in all but name unless the defenders lose, but on the other hand not making the defenders respond even when they outmatch the blockade means a faction would rather have its system be crushed economically than actually do something about it. I'm not sure what the solution to this might be, but having the defenders sit around doing nothing while a hostile power has a major fleet deployed in-system doesn't seem very sensible.

As for nerfing them without making them ineffectual, I think it's fine to make them somewhat ineffectual, at least at the start of the game. Invasions fail all the time, and usually take time to ramp up in size, so why not do the same for blockades? The League isn't invading Chicomoztoc with a full battleship armada 6 months into the game, they shouldn't be throwing around that kind of firepower on a blockade either.

Killsode

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6028 on: May 30, 2024, 04:45:28 AM »

I havent really experienced the effects of blockades yet, but i agree with DownTheDrain, making it that local defenses will deal with the blockades when they equal or overmatch them would make sense. It doesnt make much sense for local defenses to throw themselves at a blockade they cant destroy, but it makes even less sense for local defenses to not attack a blockade they can destroy.

And as vicegrip kind of mentioned, factions already send out ineffectual missions all the time, especially at the start of the game.

My view of seeing the core worlds churn with raids, invasions, and blockades is that it gives a feeling of active combat and things going on, even if in 90% of the cases they fail. Things are happening.
If invasions were weighted as such that factions only dedicated resources to actions that are guaranteed to succeed, the feeling would be entirely different. And unless they were slowed down to the point where only one or two of these invasions happened a cycle the core worlds would feel too volatile.
The factions throwing away men and ships at actions that just fail is a bit silly, but i dont mind it. It keeps the sector feeling active.

A decent idea for a new feature would actually be able to select from a few different activity presets during sector creation. A good option for one of these settings, perhaps it could just be the one alternate, would be 'total war' or something similar where factions only send fleets that are 50/50 or higher to actually succeed, but will do so more infrequently.
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Histidine

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Re: [0.97a] Nexerelin v0.11.2 "Concert of Persea" (update 2024-05-18)
« Reply #6029 on: May 30, 2024, 07:11:22 AM »

I havent really experienced the effects of blockades yet, but i agree with DownTheDrain, making it that local defenses will deal with the blockades when they equal or overmatch them would make sense.
Might explore this yeah, do a periodic (monthly?) check for force-resolving a blockade.
Would be a bit annoying for players who want to help a currently ineffective blockade succeed by thinning out defenders, but would also avoid issues involving a bunch of hostile fleets building up in-system (and potentially tilting the strength balance of regular raids/invasions), and clean up intel clutter a bit.

In the meantime I've got a quick beta version with some adjustments (and a couple of unrelated bugfixes) if anyone wants to try it out:
Download
* When strategic AI is off, conversion ratio from raids 0.3 -> 0.2, further halved if invasions are disabled in config
    * Conversion ratio is configurable as nex_raidToBlockadeConversionFreq value in settings.json
* When strategic AI is on, blockade action has 50% chance to not be considered as an action for any given concern
* Remove 35% invasion point discount for blockades
* Blockade period 180 -> 120 days
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