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Author Topic: Tactics, anyone?  (Read 63583 times)

Liberthas

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #120 on: February 20, 2012, 11:26:48 AM »

If your tempest can outrun missiles, it can outrun anything, and therefore it's invulnerable.

I'm assuming that ships will not in fact be heading away from you at full tilt in the middle of a battle.

Also, we're talking about space combat here, something that absolutely nobody has any experience with. I think it's safe to say that if humanity ever reaches the point where we have battleships in space launching missiles or whatever at one and other, technology will have considerably advanced.

(also combat would be fought at ridiculous ranges)

Also, let's fire our missile out of a launcher, imparting considerable initial velocity. The missile doesn't need a main engine of it's own, all it needs to be able to do is steer. That's still a missile.


Edit: To be clear, I'm not arguing against fighters. I think they are cool, and this is a video game, therefore coolness trumps science. However, I can't help but be drawn into a discussion like this, because I get a nerd-boner for physics.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 11:28:39 AM by Liberthas »
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #121 on: February 20, 2012, 11:31:28 AM »

Except the combat doesn't take place at far range, there are fighters swarming all over an onslaught at a range where you midaswell just shoot them with your massive guns that can also accelerate something to a fraction of light speed because they're close enough you need not even aim all that much. Missiles cost a lot of money, bullets are cheap.
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Liberthas

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2012, 11:35:12 AM »

Except the combat doesn't take place at far range, there are fighters swarming all over an onslaught at a range where you midaswell just shoot them with your massive guns that can also accelerate something to a fraction of light speed because they're close enough you need not even aim all that much. Missiles cost a lot of money, bullets are cheap.

Yeah, I was more replying to the guys who were so far off topic they'd broken through into another dimension.

In starfarer, none of what I've said applies, except for the part about coolness trumping science.
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SgtAlex86

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2012, 11:59:24 AM »

u are still making asumptions that fighters are using conventional fuel burning rocket engines for thrust...
and that there wont be nifty device to counter all those g:s
when technology is advanced enough it will seem like magick so i will still say my fighters>ur missiles because of magick ;3
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Liberthas

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #124 on: February 20, 2012, 12:05:03 PM »


when technology is advanced enough it will seem like magick so i will still say my fighters>ur missiles because of magick ;3

that's a fair assumption, tbh.
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icepick37

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2012, 12:25:15 PM »

But the point is whatever you can put in a fighter you can put in a missile. Then you just strip out all the messy human bits and fill it with explosives. Voila. What the heck else do you need?
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #126 on: February 20, 2012, 12:43:10 PM »

That's no longer a missile but a drone. Drones i got no problem with make more sense than people pilots no life is at stake but the targets.
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Iscariot

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #127 on: February 20, 2012, 12:59:18 PM »

Surrounding a warhead in armor will dampen the explosion. A warhead will only burn through so much armor surrounding it in some will hurt it. Also yes lets just use a kinetic warhead...know what thats called? A bullet. It'd just be a bullet with an engine, great for busting through earthwork and getting into a bunker but then you still need an explosion to destroy said bunker. Look at a bunkerbuster bomb, its got a lot of armor on its front cause it has to dig deep but it still has explosives that go out and up because its supposed to get inside the bunker. This works because its going against earthworks and cement with some steel reinforcements but the steels not that thick. These are spaceships that have armor that can withstand the heat from the sun.

Assuming that what you're saying is true, and I'm not saying it is, why couldn't the missile just purge its armor before it hit? That's basically what a fighter does when it launches its missile.

How do you get something that weighs only 1kg with any ability to maneuver? Remember it takes more energy to go faster the faster you are going. Also remember the faster you are going the harder it is to maneuver. Take into account the fact that your target is able to go just as fast if not faster. my tempest can outrun missiles for example. Remember that if you're going that fast and you hit something in space that's also 1 kg there goes your weapon its going to break apart. because bullets tend to shatter when they hit something. Now i only have dealt with terrestrial objects in my life  but i can tell you that missiles have their use and fighters have their use. I really wish you'd just argue for drones cause that'd make more sense.

I'm not talking about starfarer when I talk about space fighters not making sense, so I'm not sure how your tempest has anything to do with real life.

Except the combat doesn't take place at far range, there are fighters swarming all over an onslaught at a range where you midaswell just shoot them with your massive guns that can also accelerate something to a fraction of light speed because they're close enough you need not even aim all that much. Missiles cost a lot of money, bullets are cheap.

That's another assumption. You're very good at making assumptions. If you could strike from very far ranges, why wouldn't you? I certainly wouldn't want to get close if I were fighting in space, given the lack of cover of any kind.
u are still making asumptions that fighters are using conventional fuel burning rocket engines for thrust...
and that there wont be nifty device to counter all those g:s
when technology is advanced enough it will seem like magick so i will still say my fighters>ur missiles because of magick ;3

You're absolutely, right, that's magic. Reactionless drives are magic, they violate basic laws of physics that have been tried and tested and form the bedrock of our understanding of the world. And they'll never happen. It's fine if you want fighters in your story because you don't care about science (makes me wonder why you care about sci fi) but don't try to claim that it's plausible.

'In the future we'll have technology that will allow me to keep my lazy sci fi tropes' is not an argument. I don't have to make assumptions about future technology to make my case-- you do.

That's no longer a missile but a drone. Drones i got no problem with make more sense than people pilots no life is at stake but the targets.

No, it's not a drone. It's an intelligent missile. Fighters come back, missiles do not. Anything that doesn't have to come back but is a guided projectile is a missile. Anything that is a guided projectile and has to come back is a fighter. Manned or unmanned, they're terrible weapons.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 01:05:54 PM by Iscariot »
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Hopelessnoob

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2012, 01:10:45 PM »

Sure i suppose that would work. Electro magnet holds on the armor say a few miliseconds before impact it comes of still surrounding the missile but the front of it will bypass the armor and burn into the hull. Be tricky to get the timing right, if we just rely on speed could put on explosive bolts to make it work on our schedule rather than how fast its going.
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Iscariot

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2012, 01:14:14 PM »

Sure i suppose that would work. Electro magnet holds on the armor say a few miliseconds before impact it comes of still surrounding the missile but the front of it will bypass the armor and burn into the hull. Be tricky to get the timing right, if we just rely on speed could put on explosive bolts to make it work on our schedule rather than how fast its going.

Why would it be more difficult to do on a missile than on a drone fighter? A computer is doing it one way or another.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Hopelessnoob

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #130 on: February 20, 2012, 01:15:22 PM »

Because fighters don't shed their armor?
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Iscariot

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #131 on: February 20, 2012, 01:20:57 PM »

Because fighters don't shed their armor?

The fighter basically IS the armor. You're talking about a simple release system. The timing is the same.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Hopelessnoob

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #132 on: February 20, 2012, 01:27:23 PM »

What? Its not a simple release system. I suppose the armor could be attached to the missile as hardpoints but the failure rate would go up quiet a bit. Most military ordnance has around a 2% failure rate, now depending upon the number of segments of armor you have it'd increase the failure rate and we don't want that because then bad things happen such as noone dying cause the weapon doesn't work.
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Iscariot

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #133 on: February 20, 2012, 01:30:36 PM »

Sooooo why would it work on a fighter and not on a missile. They both have the same computers in them, they have the same guidance packages, the same defenses. If you want a missile to shoot a smaller, unarmored missile, I don't see why you can't do that. Again, the ONLY difference is that the fighter has to go back, which imposes disgustingly penalizing mass and fuel penalties on it.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Hopelessnoob

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Re: Tactics, anyone?
« Reply #134 on: February 20, 2012, 01:40:31 PM »

We are arguing different things you don't want a missile you want a kamikaze drone you want way more than a warhead, guidance and engine.
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