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Author Topic: [0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6  (Read 21821 times)

xenoargh

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[0.65.2aRC2] Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 6
« on: February 11, 2015, 09:28:58 PM »

This is a simple rebalance mod for Starsector's core combat values and concepts.  

I'm putting it here because I'd like to get it on the release page and get feedback from people actually playing, rather than read endless theorycrafting arguments.

It implements:

1.  Beams do Hard Flux damage.

2.  All missile-type weapons have infinite ammunition, to simplify concepts of play and improve balance.

3.  All Ballistic and Energy weapons have infinite ammunition, and have been balanced around same.

4.  The mod will eventually rebalance core ship stats and other things that still need tweaking.  

Through feedback, I hope to get each Vanilla weapon and ship tuned to the point where they're all relevant to average players.

I won't be adding new weapons, ships, sounds, effects or anything else to this mod that isn't code or text files unless it's 100% necessary; the goal is to tighten up Vanilla balance, one issue at a time, not to add new content.  So it will remain tiny.

The mod probably isn't compatible with mods that modify the core Vanilla weapon values, like SS+, unfortunately, but it should work with any other faction mods, etc.

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« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 11:13:29 PM by xenoargh »
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xenoargh

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 09:36:44 PM »

Alpha 2 has been released.

Beam Weapons:
1. Tac Laser has 800 range, buff on DPS/Flux efficiency to compensate.
2. Mining Laser is an efficient burst-beam weapon with a 3-second cooldown, to differentiate it better from the PD Laser family.  I have not tested it, so please let me know if OP / UP for cost.
3. PD Laser's DPS/Flux efficiency was buffed.
4. LRPD's range was buffed.
5. Phase Lance's DPS/Flux efficiency was buffed.  It is no longer underwater on DPS / Flux.

Energy Weapons:
6. Plasma Cannon's DPS/Flux efficiency was buffed.

Missiles:
1.  Harpoon reload timer has been tweaked downwards.
2.  Bomb timers are longer.

Ballistics:
1. LMGs and Vulcan no longer have ammo limits or clips.
2. HMG has been buffed.
3. Needlers do not have ammo limits or clips.

Systems:
1.  Fast Missile Racks now has a 15-second cooldown.

Other little tweaks that I can't be bothered to mention.  No ship changes.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:58:31 PM by xenoargh »
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Histidine

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2015, 05:40:19 AM »

Initial impressions:

Infinite missiles probably more or less works for the other weapons, but on Reaper as implemented it's just plain silly. Being able to cast Finger of Death for just 2 OP is bad enough without being able to do it once every 30 seconds.

Annihilator Pods are also silly with the ROF (the Onslaught firing all four of them at once = most annoying sound ever. Visually awful too.) - WAIT WHAT 669 DPS AT ZERO FLUX FOR 10 OP ARE YOU SERIOUS

Hard flux beams plus the 0.65.2a extended range make Wolf on Lasher... rather ridiculous.
(If long range beams + hard flux turns out to be too good, one radical idea I came up with earlier today was to flip their roles with pulse weapons. So beams are short-ranged but have high DPS, pulse weapons are long-ranged but weak.)

May make other observations and post them later.
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Cycerin

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 05:55:23 AM »

I frankly have no idea what you're trying to accomplish with many of these changes. Beams doing hard flux is inherently imbalanced, it's a binary weapon, it's either on you or not and demands little investment from the firing vessel, so when you're taking beam damage it shouldn't feel like a death sentence because it makes combat uninteresting. It also makes low-tech unable to shield, ever.

Infinite missile ammo is broken and makes missiles just like any other weapon, because you'd have to nerf the damage of most missiles, or nerf their maneuverability, cooldown between shots etc. to make them balanced, resulting in missiles that demand little interaction from the player. On many ships the main thing you do with the left mouse button is fire your kill missiles once an opportunity presents itself. With infinite harpoons, sabots, reapers etc. why not just autofire them? I think it's good that this mod exists, though, because it's a way for people to actually try out a lot of commonly voiced suggestions that sound good on paper but end up destroying the gameplay when executed.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 05:57:23 AM by Cycerin »
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Uomoz

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 06:17:30 AM »

As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly). 
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Thaago

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 07:15:02 AM »

Thanks for putting this together. I'll give this a test later tonight (probs 12 hours or so) and report back.
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xenoargh

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 10:14:31 AM »

Well, there have been three downloads, so at least one of you is venturing an opinion without actually playing it, and I'm guessing it's more like two of you, lol ;)

Honestly, if you think Vanilla's balance is great, that's fine, don't try it out :)  

Beams:
My opinion is that Beams vs. Low Tech was broken thoroughly when Tac Lasers got 1000 range.  Seriously; it killed the Hound, amongst other things.  I'm already walking it back.

Lowering the range of Beams in general, so that they're slightly lower than Ballistics in their size category, so that they cannot be used as ultra-kiting weapons (which, btw, is exactly the path Vacuum ended up walking) is on the table.  

I will probably go ahead and do that, and then we can talk about efficiency.  The problem there is going to be the same one I had with Vacuum, though; it makes it very hard to differentiate LRPD, PD, Tac and Mining Laser.  But we can go there and see.  Worst comes to worst, Small Ballistics (where the main problem is) get bumped 100 range to compensate, and then we can sort out the Mediums if there's too much practical overlap.

Missiles:
I guess I didn't nerf the Reaper enough?  I will drastically lower the Finger Of Death regen and I'll further lower the availability of same through Fast Missile Racks, which is the prime abusive squirrel case.  

I'll look at lowering the burst sizes on Annihilators as well. I never played with the Annihilator Pods, so that was just a stab in the dark.  

I actually like that they're no longer relegated to basically one-shot alpha, though, and their DPS is purely theoretical; most Annihilators don't ever hit the intended target.



In short, nothing's sacred.  I want better total balance than Vanilla currently has, where I literally am not using a lot of weapons now, and I don't mind being told that X sucks or Y is OP and I don't mind if I have to iterate for a few weeks on this to get there.  I'll get another alpha out tonight when I am done with the rest of my day, if possible.
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Lucian Greymark

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 11:00:30 AM »

I'm just going to chuck my two cents in here because... well I can.

I'm all for better balancing, but this mod just screams homogenization at me; similar ranges for everything, unlimited ammo for everything, everything does hard flux damage? No, please, just, no. I love beam weapons in that they don't do hard flux damage, it requires more concentration on my part and more brink man's ship skill to balance my flux output vs whoever I'm fighting to actually achieve results.

Missiles with unlimited ammunition across the board is daft, missiles are gap filling weapons, often designed for attacks of opportunity and firing missiles should be a carefully weighed decision. The single shot crazy damage of the reaper is what makes it different from the harpoon, if you go ahead and give my reapers unlimited ammo there's no reason for me to ever buy harpoons again, especially because reapers can go on any missile slot.

In short the things that make this game interesting is the unique and varied weapons within it, that all have unique niches within the game that make them useful. As a result I'll never play this mod as it is, and if these design philosophies get taken into the core game I'll probably mod it myself to remove them.

I'd like to reiterate that I like the idea of re balancing the game, but not in this direction. Great respect to you for going on this mission, but at the moment it looks like it's going to fail.
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xenoargh

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 11:23:44 AM »

I'd really like to suggest that the actual gameplay experience is completely different than what you're saying.  Until you play it out, you're just theorycrafting anyhow; the whole point of this is to get it done rather than talking about it endlessly.

Beams still don't miss.  This has always been their strong area.  The Soft Flux issue is just a sideways nerf that never really worked well and has always felt wrong.

Ballistics aren't "homogenous"; they're strongly differentiated from Energy weapons due to damage type.  This remains true.

Missiles aren't "homogenous", either; they're special-purpose weapons that don't add Flux.  They're strongly differentiated as well. 

Lastly, the infinite-ammo stuff is already a thing, because it already didn't matter much (or it mattered so much that nobody used Ballistics at all, depending on play style).  I totally agreed with Alex's choice there.

So it's mainly just about balancing around those core concepts, really; this leaves all of the weapons strongly differentiated, yet balanced, and that will make getting ship balance tightened up a much easier job as well :)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 11:26:10 AM by xenoargh »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 12:23:19 PM »

As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly).  

SS+ doesn't even make edits like this, only numerical tweaks to make certain things a little stronger or weaker.  The biggest change is that beams do more hit penetration on bare armor, a fact that doesn't really buff the tactical laser very much but does make the phase lance a much better weapon.  And even that is being removed in favor of simply buffing the Phase Lance.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 05:40:49 PM by Dark.Revenant »
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Velox

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 02:39:06 PM »

As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly). 

This is kind of true, actually - going back to vanilla (from SS+) was kind of a shock in a number of ways.  Especially the skill trees - ignore the green one and dump points into tech for burn speed, I'd forgotten that!  It's definitely interesting to be able to mod in various ideas and see how they play out in practice, and I love all the new content and interesting stuff in the higher-quality mods.  Also, it's the developer's game and I'm just playing it - I don't have any particular illusions about my forum contributions having any weight at all.  It's not like I'm an actual tester.

Still, I'm kind of conflicted now. 
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Toxcity

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 03:09:25 PM »

So i've played a little bit of the mod right now, and the missile and beam changes need some work.

Harpoons are pretty much trash in this mod. While their low regen rate doesn't make them to much different than their vanilla versions, they are overshadowed by Annihilators and Sabots. Sabots low reload rate means you can use them as semi-assault weapons against frigates. They don't stand up to annihilators though. Annihilator rocket launchers allow you to block shots/beams (they don't go through missiles in this mod) and raise hard-flux for no flux cost. When used with beams, you can pretty much lock ships at high hard-flux.

With a Wolf equipped with a phaselance 3 tac-lasers, and 2 annihilator rocket launchers, I was able to kill both a Venture and Medusa (not in the same fight) in the simulator. I was also able to easily destroy a bounty with a wolf, enforcer, sunder, and hammerhead. While they were D versions, I can easily see this ship carrying me to late-midgame.

To not be completely negative, I like the changes made to ballistic PD and needlers. Keeps PD from having to be micromanaged, and lets needlers not become stuttered after a few bursts.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:13:19 PM by Toxcity »
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Protonus

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2015, 06:13:15 PM »

As I said to DR, mods like this (and ss+ alike in certain aspects) kind of make a disservice to the game. Rebalancing vanilla assets via modification hurt the feedback on the forum on those topics (given that vanilla is still in the balancing phase), or even worst, derail good feedback into bad feedback from the different impressions you get in vanilla and in the mod. If you want balance changed in an alpha game you discuss it on the forum, instead of modding it, otherwise the whole thing pass unnoticed by the developer (because it's "fixed" elsewhere and doesn't get reported/discussed properly). 

I don't see SS+ making the Vanilla game look bad, the changes take just it in a level for new modding content to settle in much comfortably than it was. Sure, the developer won't make a pass and get changes from this mod, but that is the point of being a mod to begin, Alex did observed this mod and it doesn't necessarily affect him nor his team in continuing changes in the Vanilla game itself.

Surprisingly, the mod is quite above the demand for change, since requirements to play the mod becomes increasingly higher than the Vanilla that it would be unfashionably necessary for players to just download the game, slap the mod as if it was a requirement and play it, since:
1. Shader Lib (which is quite a lot of requirements already to start with)
2. Complexity (as the game is made out of simplicity, mods are just used to extend out of simplicity to a more immerse result)
3. Privileges (as mods begin to grow, the authenticity of being a mod itself is becoming more and more, and it simply makes it difficult for new players just to place in the mod and get used to its changes)

SS+ derailing aside, I think you just made an observation that simply filled with hate and not simply a reaction to just one mod that would just put other's incredible time-spent works to the landfill.



In addition, I'm all in the liking to test out new mods, but this mod is just simply a reaction of just been made from the recent patch, but that's what I just think of it.
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Uomoz

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2015, 06:16:06 PM »

SS+ derailing aside, I think you just made an observation that simply filled with hate and not simply a reaction to just one mod that would just put other's incredible time-spent works to the landfill.

That's a very superficial assumption, and completely off the mark, but whatever.
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xenoargh

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Re: <Release> Simple Rebal Mod, Alpha 2 (for 0.65.2a)
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2015, 08:14:03 PM »

Build 3 is up.

Beams:
All Beams have shorter ranges than assault-class Ballistics / Pew-Pew Energy.  There are probably arguable values in there, but it's closer.  Tac Laser is at 650, Light AC is at 700, for example (and really more, because of fade-out shots).

This includes a debuff to the Graviton Beam's range, but its efficiency went up a little bit.

HIL lost 100 range, gained 100 DPS, putting it where (imho) it should be- King of the Lasers, efficiency-wise.

This also included rework of the PD, LRPD and Mining Laser to try and find them niches.  I have no idea whether their performance is reasonable yet, but it's starting to feel sane.

Missiles:
Reload speeds on Reapers, Annihilators and Sabots have been debuffed.  Annihilator Pods have been fixed to launch at .2 per launch like their smaller cousins, but have a faster recycle time.

Other smallish tweaks include taking out the clip reloads on the remaining missiles that were still using same.  So Harpoons are burst-fire only now.  That may or may not be a good thing, flavor-wise; let's play it and see.

Ballistics:
All ranges have been buffed a little bit upwards to keep in line with Beam changes.

Energy:
Buffed range on the Plasma Cannon, per suggestions made in Megas' thread.  I still think that the better DPS/Flux efficiency is fully justified, but I'll dial that back when it's been playtested some, if there is disagreement.

I would like to hear some constructive feedback on where to go with pew-pew vs. the heavies (the Blaster series).  Methinks that pew-pew gets a range buff putting it slightly over par vs. Ballistics, but less efficient, DPS/Flux wise.  So it's more about light kiting and interceptions than it is now, but it's not seriously OP because you only get reasonable efficiency when most of the shots are hitting.  

I think that the AM Blaster is reasonably balanced right now, personally, but I haven't used it much.  The 15-second cycle time is longer than it used to be, and I rarely used all 20 shots on it, ever, unless I was trying to use a Medusa to solo a big fleet, which isn't terribly practical any more, with CR timers.

Thoughts?

Systems:
Fast Missile Racks timer has been set to 120 seconds, i.e. you can use it twice on a Frigate before getting into CR attenuation.  So it's a special buff, not a magical way to turn a Vigilance into a death-machine.

Settings:
Zoom range is now 2.5; large enough to aim anything that isn't a Tachyon Lance without feeling cramped and a more realistic sense of the battle-space.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 09:10:29 PM by xenoargh »
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